[Megathread] What's wrong with 6.21, patch balance and nerfing p8s

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Originally Posted by Serpent1ng

I honestly don't understand how you can look at the DPS disparity between Reaper and the rest of the melee dps and say that with a straight face.

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with my eyes

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Originally Posted by momokami

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...16/unknown.png

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Almost like Red mage has a battle raise, Yeah rdm should be a bit better then it is but BLM isn't even doing enough for what it is

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Originally Posted by Serpent1ng

I honestly don't understand how you can look at the DPS disparity between Reaper and the rest of the melee dps and say that with a straight face.

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Because it was a fact, that's why they posted it

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Almost like Red mage has a battle raise

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That is irrelevant in regards to balance

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Facts from SE

• P8S was overtuned by 1%. It seems their test team performed better than the average player time around.
• Minor potency buffs on Paladin and Warrior translate as no other job needed an immediate buff.
• Crit and DH buff was a needed change.
• Auto-Crit and Auto-DH is the way to go.
• Roughly 8% to 10% difference between a melee DPS and a Ranged/Caster was needed.
• Nerfing a job isn't SE mentality, they will only buff.
• Fight designs have changed to prevent Melee DPS to lose any uptime.
• .

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Fight designs are also not designed with 2minute burst in mind.

further reasoning to why 2minute burst rotations were a bad design idea

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Originally Posted by FireMage

That is irrelevant in regards to balance

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Ok rdm doing the same or near amount damage as a BLM isn't Irrelevant, their should be a Significant difference between BLM and other casters, I don't get comparing BLM to RDM dps.
It's Ignoring a major reason why you would bring a Red mage over a BLM which surprise people do, The DPS check was just extra hard this time why people wasn't playing RDM as much.

I'd argue really that RDM/SMN should be lower then Phys ranged. (All jobs should in general be closer to melee dps).
If you want RDM to have BLM dps then remove battle raise from both SMN/RDM if you want raise you shouldn't be near BLM, I'm sorry but giving people no reason to play Black Mage isn't the solution

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Originally Posted by FireMage

That is irrelevant in regards to balance

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RDM has a raid buff, constant access to an instant cast raise, and a button that both mitigates incoming raidwides and boosts healing. Its damage is fine when what the job brings to a raid is taken to account, and it should in no way be able to compete with BLM on raw damage. Stop talking.

You welcomed it so I will just say it here. There is one issue I have no seen anyone talking about yet in regards to WAR and current Savage design.

More HP sucks at dealing with DoTs. The 20% increased healing recieved is certainly useful but it doesn't make up for the higher DoT damage WAR recieves over other tanks. Equilibrium in most fights has too long of a CD to deal with every DoT (Degen + Regen is also a form of mitigation as long as the Degen doesnt kill you first), and you are strongarmed into using your Nascent abilities specifically for Tank Busters, and with the rate some of those come in some fights, you are severely limited in your window of opportunity to use that ability without causing yourself to take even stronger DoT damage from tank busters.

As for the DPS balancing... I kind of disagree with this Tank first stance. DPS damage disparity is FAR worse. I can live with -400-600 DPS because of Tank Comp. What I think is stupid is this Hierarchy. Its archaic. Its outdated. It needs to go. My personal belief is every job should be as close to same DPS as you can. No buffs for melee restriction, no buffs for difficulty (thats subjective anyway, I think AST is easy for instance). Balance damage to be the same and then work on fun factor.

What does this open up?
1. 1 melee, 1 caster, 1 phys ranged, 1 Flex of any kind. No longer are you restricted to 2 melee, you can have 2 casters, or you can have 2 phys ranged, and theres no longer that nagging feeling of "we could be doing better right now"
2. Jobs can have their focus shift from balance within a role on the "heirarchy", and just be worked on for their fun factor. As long as all jobs perform at a similar level, you are free to play what you think is most fun to you.
3. More engaging fight design. Or less... kind of depends on POV for this one. But some mechanics might be more fun if they stop designing everything around having 2 melee DPS. They can keep their giant hitboxes (RIP Neo Exdeath) and just work on mechanics that are more fun to engage with (hopefully with far less movement for our casters... P7S is pretty egregious in this regard, or at least, more spaced out movement)

The Hierarchy used to make sense. Mechanics in the past were almost exclusively designed to reduce melee uptime. They needed to do more damage because they attacked less often (but often there were melee uptime strats that negated that anyway, so I'd argue the Hierarchy has been dead for a long while now). Phys Ranged didn't deal with as many mechanics and had full uptime no matter what. Casters did more because they did have to move and movement availability before ShB for BLM and END for SMN (TBD for RDM) were far fewer, so uptime loss from movement could happen... tho not always. This is not the case anymore.

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Originally Posted by Naizakane

RDM has a raid buff, constant access to an instant cast raise, and a button that both mitigates incoming raidwides and boosts healing. Its damage is fine when what the job brings to a raid is taken to account, and it should in no way be able to compete with BLM on raw damage. Stop talking.

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That raid buff is factored into the dps calculation, it's called rDPS, but even when looking at those numbers it is still far behind BLM who brings 0 party buffs. All of these tools do not matter in the first place when the lack of dps on redmage prevents you from beating the enrage week 1. Meeting the dps check in minimum ilvl gear also assumes you have 0 deaths so the raise is entirely useless as well.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Ok rdm doing the same or near amount damage as a BLM isn't Irrelevant, their should be a Significant difference between BLM and other casters, I don't get comparing BLM to RDM dps.
It's Ignoring a major reason why you would bring a Red mage over a BLM which surprise people do, The DPS check was just extra hard this time why people wasn't playing RDM as much.

I'd argue really that RDM/SMN should be lower then Phys ranged. (All jobs should in general be closer to melee dps).
If you want RDM to have BLM dps then remove battle raise from both SMN/RDM if you want raise you shouldn't be near BLM, I'm sorry but giving people no reason to play Black Mage isn't the solution

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Strawman. I never said anything about RDM doing BLM damage. You had to invent that I did to have any ground to stand on. Also if you think that phys ranged should do more than RDM you are wrong

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Originally Posted by Naizakane

RDM has a raid buff, constant access to an instant cast raise, and a button that both mitigates incoming raidwides and boosts healing. Its damage is fine when what the job brings to a raid is taken to account, and it should in no way be able to compete with BLM on raw damage. Stop talking.

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You're also doing the same thing, strawman. Also Embolden is RDM damage, the raise is irrelevant in regards to damage, so that leaves only Barrier as actual utility. Meanwhile RDM has the worst caster movement and is harder to play than each phys ranged and SMN. Dismissed