MSQ Difficulty and Exclusion

Things used to be more difficult. It can be argued that they were needlessly so. You have things like inconsistencies in markers which don't help matters. There are still tank busters with little or no warning. As they work to make things more consistent and allow people to have time to respond, things might seem to be getting easier. Not everyone is able to play as much and learn as much as others. I pick up on things pretty quickly, but if I go to explain it to some people, it might take a few tries til they see what's going on. Sometimes it's my fault. :p

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

The primary problem I see with your argument, and the examples of what 'main story' combat should be like, is that, while single-player games can afford to be as difficult as possible from the start, working their way down in difficulty via 'cheats' or 'easy modes' for the player, MMORPGs cannot.

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Mods like ACT are a thing though. If people stopped using them, content would be difficult again and they would actually have to put some effort and thought into their clears. It's quite ironic when folks like this pat themselves on the back for clearing this and that and then try to fault others that don't use cheats, but instead try to remember everything and adjust to situations. If I could always see the cooldowns for the boss or get audio cues for what to do, I'd probably get bored too.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Lately however it feels that main story content just isn’t really at the level where it used to be, and there are very little ways in which the player’s combat skill is checked and assessed in ways not reliant on team gameplay. This has the effect of widening the gap between players who are ready for more difficult content like EX or Savages and those who are not. At the end of the day I think it would be more beneficial to increase the difficulty of MSQ battle content (dungeons, trials, instanced battles) in order to provide an experience that leans less toward the easy side and more of a well-rounded approach. While some players may feel left behind by such a decision, I do think it would be in the interest of the majority to try and find a better balance than what we’ve been seeing nowadays.

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You're assuming that most players care about doing EX and Savage when it's current. I doubt that's true.

SE is only going to lose money if they redo how MSQ content is balanced to make it more difficult. That's not going to benefit anyone if that means they have to start cutting down on content produced.

If there's a skill gap that's causing problems in EX/Savage because too many players are trying to get into groups even though they're not ready for the content then SE needs to add in new content that would help to bridge the gap rather than change the MSQ, which is intended to be story mode for casual players..

i actually find EW dungeons engaging. I think the alliance raid is too easy tho.
but yes casual contents are too easy. I don't think ppl are really that bad but just too lazy to press few more buttons.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

If there's a skill gap that's causing problems in EX/Savage because too many players are trying to get into groups even though they're not ready for the content then SE needs to add in new content that would help to bridge the gap rather than change the MSQ, which is intended to be story mode for casual players..

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I feel like we already have a good bridge with the quality video guides that are out there. Unfortunately, people don't want to do a little studying beforehand.

MSQ dungeons are just set pieces at this point, if the side content doesn't pick up the slack then nothing will.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Since this seems to be the first MMO for a large number of those players, one would be foolish to ignore the possibility that "harder story line = fewer subscribers = lower income".

I can guarantee that "harder story line = more subscribers = higher income" is not a possibility in the video game MMORPG industry, or someone would have done exactly that at some point in the last two decades. [Rest in Peace, Wildstar].

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Another example of this is what happened in Guild Wars 2 with their 1st expansion "Heart of Thorns" Many players on the official forums decried how easy the base game was and wanted the game to be harder, more group focused, erc... and made the same claims as you see in these kinds of threads - that making the game harder would motivate ppl to get better, that it would make the game more enjoyable to more ppl, that it would bring in more $$$, etc. ANet listened and made the HoT expansion exactly that - way harder, locked character & MSQ progression behind either super hard solo stuff or group-only events, etc.

The result being Guild Wars lost a huge chunk of it's player base, and ANet had it's biggest ever, 6-month loss in revenue. Things were so bad for ANet that they had to make public apologies, nerfed the content hard, changed most of the group-only content to stuff that could be solo'ed, changed character progression & MSQ stuff from super hard to hard, etc just to stop the player bleed and stay in business (had it kept going, they'd likely have ended up shut down by NCSoft within the next 6 months, that's how bad it was looking for them).1

Fact is, the vast majority of MMO players are not the Savage, extreme, ultimate, etc players. They are ppl who just want to sit down and relax after a hard day/week at work... who don't want to have to have stress trying to get through a video game. If they hit a brick wall, most will try once or twice... and if they can't get past, they will quit and go elsewhere. This has been shown and proven to be the case so much over the years, and yet we still have ppl tryign to push for non 'opt in' difficulty changes forced on everyone./.. as if this this it will go a different way than every other time in in the past.

I really wish these ppl would push for more optional & opt-in difficulty, rather than trying to force it on other's who are not interested in it. Optional like a setting that sets the MSQ solo duties at a higher-than-normal setting... as SE has shown these can be scaled from 'normal' to 'very easy', so why not also scale the difficulty upwards as well for those who want it? Or add in a DR for 'forced min ILVL" for those who want to do dungeons/trials/raids aat a harder state with like-minded ppl - sure it might not queue as quickly as normal DR, but at least you'll be getting your optional harder content.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I do think that nowadays the difficulty of the MSQ has been significantly reduced due to a number of factors, but this hasn’t always been to the benefit of the player experience. Fundamentally, video games should provide logical and increasing challenges as time goes on in the main campaign. In single player titles these challenges can be reduced via difficulty options, which in FFXIV’s case would be the use of Duty Support/Trusts whose AI behavior provides clues about how to handle certain boss mechanics, or the difficulty options that appear after one fails an instanced battle.

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Wildstar says hello :)

And this already happens. ARR dungeons gradually increase in difficulty, with Cutter's Cry being the first to introduce real boss mechanics with the blue/purple, attracted energy ball, etc.. And Aurum Vale still results in early wipes with the amount of trash and pats.

And then compare the first EW dungeon with the first dungeon of any previous xpac, and the mechanics are significantly more complex, especially on the final boss fight.

So, it already happens.

And as many others have mentioned, the MSQ itself still needs to be accessible to the playerbase at large, including people of all ages and abilities, most especially in a game like FFXIV which is focused on its storyline. We don't need more difficult MSQ content that will only drive people away. Notice that the things you "approve" of are mainly optional content. That's exactly how it should be.

(And should I say "posting in an aveyond thread"?)

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Originally Posted by Eraden

Wonderful. Another attempt by someone with an elitist mindset to make the game more difficult for everyone. I thought savage level content was good enough for those who wanted a greater challenge. You DO realize, I hope, that some of us might be elderly or disabled or both and would likely be excluded by your elitist vision of what the game should be like. As some have already mentioned here, it is most likely that you would cause significant reductions in the player base if you got your way and turned the game into an elitist sandbox. A sandbox that would start to dwindle away as the few remaining players would not be sufficient to support the game. Be careful what you wish for.

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I don’t agree with what this person is proposing but god damn do people on the OF need to stop construing anything and everything as elitist, elitist in this sense would be “you need to do the current savage tier before unlocking the next patch” not “dungeons aren’t really challenging and don’t punish failure enough”

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I don’t agree with what this person is proposing but god damn do people on the OF need to stop construing anything and everything as elitist, elitist in this sense would be “you need to do the current savage tier before unlocking the next patch” not “dungeons aren’t really challenging and don’t punish failure enough”

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The OP is demonstrating a classic elitist mindset. MSQs are too easy for the OP so ramp up the difficulty of the MSQs regardless of whether or not others are adversely affected and/or even excluded. This is classic elitism at its finest. Making the game harder so that only the OP and fewer and fewer people can participate. You don't have to be at the top of the game charts to be elitist. You only need to be willing to exclude others below you.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

Wonderful. Another attempt by someone with an elitist mindset to make the game more difficult for everyone. I thought savage level content was good enough for those who wanted a greater challenge. You DO realize, I hope, that some of us might be elderly or disabled or both and would likely be excluded by your elitist vision of what the game should be like. As some have already mentioned here, it is most likely that you would cause significant reductions in the player base if you got your way and turned the game into an elitist sandbox. A sandbox that would start to dwindle away as the few remaining players would not be sufficient to support the game. Be careful what you wish for.

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Have only one working hand, cleared all of savage this tier. I don't think it's really fair to lump all people who have a disability into your argument of not wanting content to get more difficult.