Would Endwalker have been better if we never visited Elpis at all?

The problem with Elpis is that somehow people walked away from that arc thinking there was a utopia and it would have been better to exist in that time than right now. They apparently didn't pay attention to the Dead Ends.

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

The problem with Elpis is that somehow people walked away from that arc thinking there was a utopia and it would have been better to exist in that time than right now. They apparently didn't pay attention to the Dead Ends.

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Based on what I've read on the forums, I would say the majority of people here didn't pay attention to the entirety of the story.

Ah, this version of EW bingo...

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

Random Player: "I was disappointed with this expansion and here's why..." *states all of their opinions*

The Great Community BTW: "You obviously didn't pay attention to the story..." "You didn't understand the theme fof the story..." "You must've skipped some cutscenes..." "Well you're in the minority. Most people enjoy it. *shrug*" "Just unsub if you're so unhappy. Complaining about it isn't gonna change anything." "You need to touch grass because you're analyzing things way too deeply. It's just an mmo." "THIS IS BAIT" *makes forum post titled If You Hate the Story Why are you Here?*

Random Player: "Damn all I did was say my opinion."

The Great Community BTW: "You said it like it was objective fact. It's like art, everyone has their own perspective."

Random Player: "...I'm sorry. I didn't realize I had to add "IMO" after every sentence."

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To quote another poster who put it better than I could:

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Originally Posted by Lurina

This sort of narrative economy argument only really works when the narrative is, well, economic - when there aren't unaddressed threads that seem to contradict what it's trying to tell you is self evident.

The writers didn't have to put the line from Emet where he suggests the convocation had special means of telling truth from lies. They didn't have to leave the implication that Venat's plan evidently is not ironclad by making the plot of Shadowbringers predicated on it having gone wrong in another timeline. The issue is not merely an absence of facts supporting the premise, but the presence of facts counter to it that require the audience to find their own justifications for dismissing.

The more controversial a plot element, the tighter the plot has to be to get people to accept it in good faith, and "cultural genocide was the right call to save the world" is about as close to maximum controversy as you can get. I think the fact that these forums, the comments on Venat's entry in the JP character poll, and pretty much everywhere else the story is being discussed are filled with people expressing discomfort or irritation with it self-evident proof that the writers didn't quite make it.

That might change with the post-MSQ content, mind. But it's at least true for the time being.

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I thought it was fine and set up the metaphor for Pandora's Box quite well, on top of the setting up (through that metaphor) the underlying theme of hope (be it for the future, be it for your own kind, etc...). It gave a better insight into Hermes and what drove him, which in turn fleshed out Amon and Fandaniel instead of having either of them simply be Nihilists for Nihilism's sake. In a way, it's pretty easy to see how his overbearing love for all life could turn to what it did -- with the fallacious argument he poses due to what Meteion ultimately reports, which even Hades just points out immediately.

It also set up the notion that no one in the story is free from sin, that a path paved with the best of intentions can still bring forth unintended or unexpected consequence. That, sometimes, the choice that would lead to survival isn't perfect albeit is a better option to dying in the cold due to inaction -- presenting a conundrum the player can mull over.

Granted, I also liked seeing other characters become more fleshed out in addition -- Hades and his behaviors, Hythlodaeus, Venat, and even the Azem the player character is attached to. Even Zenos, considering the subject matter.

Sure, it made the actual metaphor incredibly on the nose and obvious, and sure some of the overall writing may feel a little shallow with regards to some aspects that might've been better delved into some more... but this game's story is, ultimately, meant to be more of a young adult story. It's a story designed to have bombastic moments, and over-the-top situations because, at the end of the day, it's a rated T videogame that has to have you fighting something for gameplay purposes.

There was, to me, an inconsistency -- in that Venat, as depicted when going back, seemed to make the decision to become Hydaelyn as a much more immediate reaction to the summoning of Zodiark (like, an emergency reaction and on her own), vs. a more calculated and planned reaction by a group as described previously in Shadowbringers.

Regardless, though, I wouldn't call what Venat did a "genocide" as that feels like an irresponsible use of the term, as she didn't intend to completely destroy the ancients, but rather; saved them as best as she could which, in this example, was sundering their souls. Was it a perfect choice? No, was it the only choice? Technically no, since Zodiark was the other presented solution. Is there room for criticism and brainstorming other avenues? Absolutely, the last point being something that stories should do -- make you consider their own messages/solutions and critically think about them.

(for clarification; if it were a genocide: her aim would've been to destroy the Ancients deliberately, wiping them out entirely and not trying to keep their souls -- even if sundered -- alive in the new people who inhabited the various shards. Which is why I find it an incorrect descriptor as, ultimately, her intention and goal was to try and save them in the only way she knew how in that moment).

It also, really, showed that these people weren't Gods. They were just... people.

(I mean, I'll also include as it has been brought up in the thread: Elpis in narrative concept is pretty common in a lot of anime, at least. The idea that a perfect existence leads only to stagnation and, then, the loss of purpose and the inevitable destruction of life that purposeless-ness brings about as nihilism takes hold of the mind, as if everything feels pointless, forever, what's then the point in taking another step? Which is illustrated by the Dead Ends, with Ra-La, a society paralleled to the Ancients who ultimately chose death as existence itself became a form of anguish. Essentially: Paradise, Utopia, are nonexistent).

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Originally Posted by Lium

Based on what I've read on the forums, I would say the majority of people here didn't pay attention to the entirety of the story.

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How so? What can you point out that you think has been misunderstood or not comprehended about the story?

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

The problem with Elpis is that somehow people walked away from that arc thinking there was a utopia and it would have been better to exist in that time than right now. They apparently didn't pay attention to the Dead Ends.

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Again, I see this line thrown around so often as some sort of retort to people who didn't enjoy the story. "You must not have been paying attention to XXX.".

What makes you think that the people who look deeply at the story and point out the contradictions and contrivances are the ones who aren't paying attention to the story? Just because someone takes something different away from the narrative does not mean that attention was not being paid.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Ah, this version of EW bingo...

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There is absolutely nothing a critic hates more than criticism. If you give your opinion, people are allowed to have opinions on it. If you don't want that, keep it to yourself. This ain't a soap box.

Elpis was the best part of the game for me apart from Venat being stupid and selfish

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

How so? What can you point out that you think has been misunderstood or not comprehended about the story?

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I've stated all my opinions many times in the Lore section. You can check this thread here.

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

There is absolutely nothing a critic hates more than criticism. If you give your opinion, people are allowed to have opinions on it. If you don't want that, keep it to yourself. This ain't a soap box.

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Awfully defensive, aren't you? When I am hearing from people that posters didn't pay attention, with zero evidence (in fact worse than zero), I am going to call them out on that trite point, and no, I will certainly not keep it to myself, whether you like it or not - understood? Stamp your little feet all you like.

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Originally Posted by Lium

I've stated all my opinions many times in the Lore section. You can check this thread here.

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Weird example to choose, that.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

If the entirety of the storyline surrounding Venat and the events of Elpis had not been in-game, would the story seem better to you? Or was it essential for the successful conclusion of 6.0, despite the dislike of that storyline for a number of forum posters?

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Dislike of the storyline? Elpis was brilliant.