Small(er) scale Frontlines

I'd take a smaller scale anyday but not with the current maps, which work well with 72, but would feel completely empty at 24.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

I never understand the whining about premades. Like, dude... if they can use PF, friends list, discord server, etc to make a premade... then so can you. Stop whining and use the solutions in front of you to fix the problem.

It's an MMO, and a highly social one at that. *ANY* change that would make it harder to play with your friends is one that should be very carefully examined and considered before implementation. But I guess SE would rather not have to listen to whining.

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It's understandable in this game though, and that's why there is solo queue in the competitive smaller scale mode, and also why there should be duo queue and more if that happens to work out.

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Originally Posted by Teno

I'd take a smaller scale anyday but not with the current maps, which work well with 72, but would feel completely empty at 24.



It's understandable in this game though, and that's why there is solo queue in the competitive smaller scale mode, and also why there should be duo queue and more if that happens to work out.

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IIRC they reduced the number of active nodes in smaller scale so that players would still be concentrated in only a couple places. As for ranked, it really should be team ranked only. The entire concept of ranked is to play to win and to have as close to proper skill-based matching as possible - and you can only really achieve that in proper team versus team gameplay. Casual, Casual (Team), and Ranked (Team) should be the only options. Ranked should require a discrete PvP Team, while casual just means you can queue with your friends and doesn't require or utilize PvP Teams.

I hated 8v8v8 FL. Mostly because it would just use that when queues were low. Which sounds good in theory, but when I zoned in, I zoned into something that wasn't Frontline. It was a big, sparse, desolate expanse, with a lot of objectives that didn't scale (mainly the ice in Shatter, which had too much HP). So I would stop trying to queue if I thought it could risk putting me in that position. If it was a manual thing you could queue into, it wouldn't be as bad. On the other hand, I still think the maps are not really good for this. Fixing objective scaling is easy enough, but the maps suck for 24 players (and honestly Borderland Ruins just suck, period, but that's besides the point). They would need to be way smaller and simpler. Rather than put the resources into making another mid-size experience, a "mini FL", I rather they put the resources into making Rival Wings good, and add more maps That's a good mid-size PvP experience. Problem is Hidden Gorge is 5 maps wearing a trench coat, and addressing that is a good start.

The absence of RW from regular PvP activity is definitely a big hole. I'm assuming they will be addressing that, as last we heard they were saying something about bringing Astragalos back. Doing that will give players a nice array of PvP content to choose from.

I'm still amazed we don't have any Capture the Flag modes. CTF is one of the stand-bys of competitive games for good reason. Murderball is another really popular mode that is strangely absent.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

The absence of RW from regular PvP activity is definitely a big hole. I'm assuming they will be addressing that, as last we heard they were saying something about bringing Astragalos back. Doing that will give players a nice array of PvP content to choose from.

I'm still amazed we don't have any Capture the Flag modes. CTF is one of the stand-bys of competitive games for good reason. Murderball is another really popular mode that is strangely absent.

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Yeah. They specifically said Rival Wings (I assume Hidden Gorge) is coming back with 6.2, since it requires rebalancing. I didn't think changing some HP values could be so hard back when they said that, but now that we have been playing the 6.1 PvP for a while... yeah, it will require a lot more tuning for it to make sense with the way jobs play now.

The absence of something like CTF is poignant. Historically, before 6.1 my main criticism with FFXIV PvP-- besides functional issues like just how the game plays on a fundamental level-- was that the developer always over-complicated it, overthink it, over-design it, or on the far side over-refine it. It's enough people are interacting with an almost alien kit or systems... They have maps like Hidden Gorge with way, way, way too much on it, or want a 3 team massive bloodbath with random objectives... None of these are bad on a baseline, but then they had on the opposite side... Feast. TOO rigid, too focused. A middleground is nicer. The diehards will often favourite ultra-competitive modes, but on a baseline people like simple things like 12v12 CTF where you don't have to think too much, but you still have a sense there is fundamental competitive integrity. Game modes older than multiplayer videogames. Now here we are, with 6.1, they did a mode that is less stiff than Feast, and way less over-designed than RW. And it's a good shift in philosophy, and I kind of wish they had better control of themselves earlier on.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

I never understand the whining about premades. Like, dude... if they can use PF, friends list, discord server, etc to make a premade... then so can you. Stop whining and use the solutions in front of you to fix the problem.

It's an MMO, and a highly social one at that. *ANY* change that would make it harder to play with your friends is one that should be very carefully examined and considered before implementation. But I guess SE would rather not have to listen to whining.

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Playing against a full premade was about as fun as beating yourself with a whip, randoms always got decimated, and being forced to find a group of tryhards to queue with just because everyone else is doing it doesn't exactly strike me as fun, personally, but I guess that's whining, kek.

Between 72-man and 24-man with 8-man premades, I think I'd rather skip pvp entirely, both options are just competing for who can be less fun.

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Originally Posted by Naphtha

Playing against a full premade was about as fun as beating yourself with a whip, randoms always got decimated, and being forced to find a group of tryhards to queue with just because everyone else is doing it doesn't exactly strike me as fun, personally, but I guess that's whining, kek.

Between 72-man and 24-man with 8-man premades, I think I'd rather skip pvp entirely, both options are just competing for who can be less fun.

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The point of PvP is to have balanced, engaging games where both teams are playing to win. Playing to win tends to mean coordination and cooperation, and you get that reliably through premaking parties and teams ahead of time, and you guarantee good games by playing against others that have done so.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

The point of PvP is to have balanced, engaging games where both teams are playing to win. Playing to win tends to mean coordination and cooperation, and you get that reliably through premaking parties and teams ahead of time, and you guarantee good games by playing against others that have done so.

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By that logic, shouldn't we get rid of casual CC? Since the teams aren't premade, therefore they aren't going to be necessarily trying to win, so it's not real PvP.

If people want to get in comms to unironically pull off 'strats' in Frontlines of all modes then that's their problem, being forced to play as a premade or lose has never been the norm in any sensible PvP game outside of the competitive ranked modes.