DPS resource gauges - bring back Kaiten, and improve other DPS too.

Thank you for the corrections, I just rounded up to the nearest tenth. Anyhow, there's a lot of different things you can do that causes lots of fluctuations on damage. It's one ability mentioned there, but the full kit can be that drastic dps swing - and that's what I think they're trying to look at. Regardless, I'm leaning on this as the source of why they hacked the samurai kit apart. Whether or not you agree with the why's, this is what I'm guessing on with the talk going from button bloat to variance to whatever.

I don't think the variance is that out of control mind you, but four different flavors of hits is quite a lot from what I'm used to seeing in games like these.

On the topic of expanding Meditation, I think with how frequently we tend to get an iaijutsu out, 5 stacks would be a good starting point, but I would suggest allowing Senei and Guren to add a Meditation stack as well if they were to expand on the idea as I mentioned in my previous post.

Aside from that, I don't think I have much else I can throw in for discussion. I play on console and use controller, so I can't really speak to the idea of numbers or analyze the variance. All I know is my combos used to do about 10-18k on a target as I'd see that flash above their body and my midare used to do about 24-40k whenever I cared to look above the target.

I guess that kind of proves the variance thing the devs pointed to, but then why flatten it all to be so low afterwards? WAR can hit anywhere up from 50k to 90k with an inner chaos if other players are to be believed and that's absurd. I mean, that's awesome, but absurd when you put into perspective that dps isn't reaching those numbers.

Currently, when I look above a target I'm seeing combos do about 8-18k and midare 21-23k. And tenka goken got hit hard with the nerf. It does just as much as my aoe combo. It does the same as kyuten. It's literally not worth using in dungeons unless you'd rather use shoha 2 instead of quickly using kyuten over and over again which, unlike shinten, does at least flow well with the gcd attack animations since it's a meaty spin move like the rest of the aoe generators.

All in all, I think a reversion would be the best start and from there, they consider reworking the job in a way that doesn't fundamentally change the identity. SAM was always the job that excels in burst, don't take that away to make us the consistent MNK. rng is a part of these things and if there's no more rng, then the buildup better still be rewarding which currently it is not.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

On the topic of expanding Meditation, I think with how frequently we tend to get an iaijutsu out, 5 stacks would be a good starting point, but I would suggest allowing Senei and Guren to add a Meditation stack as well if they were to expand on the idea as I mentioned in my previous post.

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I kinda like the idea of Third Eye giving meditation instead of kenki as well.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

I guess that kind of proves the variance thing the devs pointed to, but then why flatten it all to be so low afterwards? WAR can hit anywhere up from 50k to 90k with an inner chaos if other players are to be believed and that's absurd. I mean, that's awesome, but absurd when you put into perspective that dps isn't reaching those numbers.

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For what it's worth, my DNC crits for around 70k with Technical Finish in casual environments (no coordinated buffs for burst). I've heard that in ideal conditions, NIN's Hyosho Ranryu crits for over 100k, and I have no reason to doubt that.

Meanwhile, my SAM, who has significantly better gear than my DNC, usually crits for around 25k with its big hitters.

Here's the thing though (part 1):

It's actually completely reasonable that SAM doesn't hit as big numbers as other jobs because we get to do it way more often than other jobs.

Using DNC as an example, they get to use Technical Finish once every 2m, Starfall Dance once every 2m, and Standard Finish ~4 times every 2m, so 6 "big hitters" every 2m.

Meanwhile, SAM gets to Ogi once every 2m, which hits twice, and also uses Midare roughly 10 times in that timeframe, so 12 "big hitters" every 2m.

Given that SAM swings big twice as often as DNC, it's totally reasonable that those big swings aren't going to do as much per swing.

Here's the thing though (part 2):

Aside from actually removing elements of randomization, the best way to normalize random sampling is by increasing the sample size, which is to say longer combat length or...spread the big burst across more swings...which is what SAM was already doing.

If they really wanted to mitigate crit randomization, they'd be targeting abilities that do massive damage in one swing - not stuff like Ogi Namikiri that is 2 swings by design or Midare, which is already used so often that the variance averages out naturally.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

And tenka goken got hit hard with the nerf. It does just as much as my aoe combo. It does the same as kyuten. It's literally not worth using in dungeons unless you'd rather use shoha 2 instead of quickly using kyuten over and over again which, unlike shinten, does at least flow well with the gcd attack animations since it's a meaty spin move like the rest of the aoe generators.

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Yeah, I've been curious about that - I find myself leaning further and further towards Kyuten spam just because the positioning requirements for Tenka Goken are so oppressive now - sure, a cast bar standing in the middle of an enemy pack - that sounds safe.

I've never liked Tenka Goken, but it's definitely worse now than it was before. Thankfully Kyuten spam feels pretty good thanks to its animation and SFX.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

All in all, I think a reversion would be the best start and from there, they consider reworking the job in a way that doesn't fundamentally change the identity. SAM was always the job that excels in burst, don't take that away to make us the consistent MNK. rng is a part of these things and if there's no more rng, then the buildup better still be rewarding which currently it is not.

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Agreed - I'm a fan of some tasteful RNG, but I'd also be okay without it if our big hitters hit big, but they don't - the entire kit is designed around building up resources and then dumping those resources on meaty burst, but our burst isn't meaty anymore. Ultimately it comes back to Kaiten - we were used to burning 20 kenki and 3 sen for big burst, and now we're seeing auto-crits that crit for less than non-crits did before, and I've seen a lot of people complain about the potency changes as a result, but the actual difference is the lack of Kaiten - nobody would care about potency going from 660 to 600 because of auto-crit if we still had Kaiten to buff that 600 to 900.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

I guess that kind of proves the variance thing the devs pointed to, but then why flatten it all to be so low afterwards? WAR can hit anywhere up from 50k to 90k with an inner chaos if other players are to be believed and that's absurd. I mean, that's awesome, but absurd when you put into perspective that dps isn't reaching those numbers.

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"Other players", huh?

Sounds like those other players need to do some homework.

That's anywhere from 100-350% higher than what is currently achieveable without some encounter specific / unsynced funkery going on.

I've never hit primal rends or inner chaos that high, that's for sure. I'm not full i600 on warrior but I am close to it. Especially since tanks do -20% damage baseline.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

"Other players", huh?

Sounds like those other players need to do some homework.

That's anywhere from 100-350% higher than what is currently achieveable without some encounter specific / unsynced funkery going on.

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*shrug*

I haven't leveled WAR this xpac yet. I'm working on some other roles as GNB is my main tank job currently. DRK I'm leveling for glam and because I have a retainer set to DRK.

But whether I'm hearing accurately or not, the main point I meant from it is that midare is pretty weak in comparison to these other jobs.

cjbeagle just pointed out a good point though about frequency of use. So I suppose I can accept that. I just wish the job wasn't altered so suddenly, mainly.

But this thread is mainly about gauge and resource, so I'll throw back to the idea of Meditation.

On one hand, I can see Third Eye making a lot of sense thematically and in practice for giving a stack of Meditation. It would be another form of reward for mitigating unavoidable damage properly without altering the manner of play.
But on the other hand, Third Eye offering a stack of Meditation would make capping stacks pretty fast, and is likely why it wasn't tied together anytime before.

Third Eye is available every 15 seconds, so while raid-wides aren't so frequent in most cases, it certainly makes the opener quicker what with using ogi/kaeshi and midare/kaeshi, coupled with higanbana somewhere in all that. It means there'd be a fourth source of Meditation gain in the first 20 seconds when you can already cap in that time frame.

A bit iffy, imo, but a good start to expanding the resource if they increase the max count.

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Originally Posted by Ruminous

I've never hit primal rends or inner chaos that high, that's for sure. I'm not full i600 on warrior but I am close to it. Especially since tanks do -20% damage baseline.

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Pretty sure tank damage was changed in ShB, but I digress. I probably have the wrong number in mind now that I'm reading a DNC value on the same page.

Inner Chaos's potency is 650 right now on a direct auto crit. Basically 10 potency higher than midare setsugekka's is. But yeah, I sure do wish I was hitting them for 90k!

Anyway, yeah, making a third eye hit give a shoha stack would be nice. Though again, I think we should talk about a rework if we're not getting 6.08 back. Not to say I don't think new things would be nice, but we're either trying to jury rig a broken machine (current sam), or making something stronger than it has to be (6.08 sam). Meditate itself though needs to be overhauled or pruned, it's absolutely useless as it is now.

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Originally Posted by Ruminous

Inner Chaos's potency is 650 right now on a direct auto crit. Basically 10 potency higher than midare setsugekka's is. But yeah, I sure do wish I was hitting them for 90k!

Anyway, yeah, making a third eye hit give a shoha stack would be nice. Though again, I think we should talk about a rework if we're not getting 6.08 back. Not to say I don't think new things would be nice, but we're either trying to jury rig a broken machine (current sam), or making something stronger than it has to be (6.08 sam). Meditate itself though needs to be overhauled or pruned, it's absolutely useless as it is now.

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Well, anything that could be suggested by us isn't going to be much of use until we know what the devs actually want to do with the job going forward. With so many poor excuses and them knowing the change put in place would anger the playerbase, I think it'll be easier to make ideas once we know where they want to go with the general feedback about the change.

I honestly think bringing it back to 6.08 first would be best to start, maybe adjust certain effects or potencies a bit to keep it roughly in line with what they've done already, and then from there they can start planning whatever, so long as it remains locked until the next xpac, because reworking a job mid xpac so early would be a weird way to go with this.