Leveling/playing DPS is actively punished

I agree that the whole situation is overall bad. I leveled a bunch of classes for the job quests and honestly, yeah. Leveling is already super boring for Healers and Tanks, for DPS though? It's straight up dull, completely monotonous, 15 min queue, 20 min dungeon, rinse and repeat, Limsa Lominsa benches will be your best friend because you will be watching videos, shows or lives on your second monitor while you wait for the damn queue to pop.

The thing is though, I don't think there's much to do, even though Tank design feels very oversimplified right now, I think it's the imaginary responsibility assigned to Healer and Tanks that triggers people's anxiety and makes them avoid the roles. DPS is a hell of a lot more laid back, Healers is more about you reacting to situations, Tanks is about awareness, know what to do and when to do, position boss correctly, etc while optimizing rotation, while DPS is more of a "dodge and do mechanics here and there while trying to optimize rotation".

Idk, overall DPS always felt to me, in every MMO I played, a more relaxed role and I know it's the same to many people, considering it's often more popular, and because of said popularity, devs usually make their gameplay much more exciting than the other roles.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

The fact that WoW has bad dps queues doesn't disprove the approach - it just means they'd be even worse if WoW had a 1/1/2 ratio. It's just a supply and demand problem - the supply only decreases if the queue times are so long that people drop queue or change their role because of the projected wait, so increase the demand.

EDIT: Overwatch has an interesting solution to this problem, which is a voucher system where you can queue as a tank or healer to earn a voucher, then spend that voucher to cut to the front of the line as dps. For people who don't mind tanking or healing, but do want to dps, but not wait, this allows them get insta-queues as dps by first doing a game as a tank or healer, which many players are perfectly happy to do, however for dps who only want to dps, it still lowers the queue time because of all the people queuing as tanks and healers to earn their vouchers. Disclaimer: I'm not sure if that system is still in place - haven't touched the game in like 3 years - doubt it'd work as well with their new 2/2/2 mandate.

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Another thing that makes it worse is that the tank responsibility in WoW is pretty big, for M+ you are the one supposed to know routes, which packs to kill and which to avoid, compensate for any mistakes your group might make like pulling a pack you could've skipped etc, which is to say, in that content alone you literally have to do homework before doing content, while the other two roles just gotta make sure they don't screw things up. WoW dungeons are also way less linear than FFXIV's, newer tanks might get flamed a lot for not knowing optimal routes.

Also, yet another thing, Tanks usually are extremely niche in PvP and extremely slow in World content, DPS overall feel more versatile when it comes to what content you can participate in, not to mention that most guilds usually have their 2 dedicated tanks in their 24man statics, there's way more spots available for DPS than tanks.

WoW's issue is far bigger than FFXIV's in that regard.

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Originally Posted by Hysorn

Another thing that makes it worse is that the tank responsibility in WoW is pretty big, for M+ you are the one supposed to know routes, which packs to kill and which to avoid, compensate for any mistakes your group might make like pulling a pack you could've skipped etc, which is to say, in that content alone you literally have to do homework before doing content, while the other two roles just gotta make sure they don't screw things up. WoW dungeons are also way less linear than FFXIV's, newer tanks might get flamed a lot for not knowing optimal routes.

Also, yet another thing, Tanks usually are extremely niche in PvP and extremely slow in World content, DPS overall feel more versatile when it comes to what content you can participate in, not to mention that most guilds usually have their 2 dedicated tanks in their 24man statics, there's way more spots available for DPS than tanks.

WoW's issue is far bigger than FFXIV's in that regard.

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Very, very, very true. Tanking M+ was legitimately more nerve-wracking than tanking raids for me. That's also a really good point about the PVP distribution in WoW - I hadn't considered that.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

The fact that WoW has bad dps queues doesn't disprove the approach - it just means they'd be even worse if WoW had a 1/1/2 ratio. It's just a supply and demand problem - the supply only decreases if the queue times are so long that people drop queue or change their role because of the projected wait, so increase the demand.

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That's more or less what I'm highlighting here. It doesn't change the supply vs demand. The only ways to really increase it would be to give more rewards to the dps players to queue (not a good thing for the tanks/healers) or vice versa. Adding more slots in wont really change the issue of supply and demand either unless the dps numbers you can cram in are much, much higher.

That being said, I'd rather address the issue of leveling itself. If dungeons are the only 'quick' way to level, then we'd need to find other solutions that don't involve dungeons. Or, something more freeform that a group of 4 can do that doesn't require the typical 1/1/2 setup to do. The world is a very large place, and they can always find ways to do more with it.

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Originally Posted by Ruminous

That's more or less what I'm highlighting here. It doesn't change the supply vs demand. The only ways to really increase it would be to give more rewards to the dps players to queue (not a good thing for the tanks/healers) or vice versa. Adding more slots in wont really change the issue of supply and demand either unless the dps numbers you can cram in are much, much higher.

That being said, I'd rather address the issue of leveling itself. If dungeons are the only 'quick' way to level, then we'd need to find other solutions that don't involve dungeons. Or, something more freeform that a group of 4 can do that doesn't require the typical 1/1/2 setup to do. The world is a very large place, and they can always find ways to do more with it.

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But dungeons are not the only fast way to level...I don't even touch dungeons half the time when leveling another dps job.

I just do fates/leveling between queues when im leveling DPS, is a good extra exp and save me some runs of the same dungeon.

DPS queues are high with a reason, because everyone like to play DPS, you have less responsibility about something wrong happen in dungeons/no high end content and DPS are the most jobs in the game.

They have done some things to help DPS players not rely solely on DF queues to level. There are FATEs, tribe quests, daily hunts, Squadrons, Trusts, PoTD/HoH, and they will eventually expand the duty support system into HW and SB leveling dungeons. I am aware that the other options aren't ideal, and just not as fun as running a dungeon with other peeps. It is what it is though. There are just far more players running as DPS jobs at any given time, and there are never enough tanks and healers to accommodate them all. This is why increasing the number of DPS players from 2 to 3 won't do anything, and might even have an adverse effect.

If it is any consolation, just about any and all solo activity is far better as a DPS job. When engaging enemies solo, they get to utilize more of their kits than tanks and healers as a lot of their skills are there to support a party. And considering MSQ solo fights are designed so any job can complete them, doing them as a DPS makes them far more exciting and fun to do. Makes me want to start up a NG+ to do the new Cape Westwind and Lahabrea battles.

Just stick it out like everyone else. Hopefully with shorter queue times in the near future.

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Originally Posted by Ruminous

That's more or less what I'm highlighting here. It doesn't change the supply vs demand.

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It does though - if the group comp was 1/1/3 that increases the demand for dps by 50% - every queue pop grabs an additional dps, which means less dps in queue which means lower queue times.

Regardless, your core point is that other methods should be just as viable as dungeon spam, and you're right.

Just, please stop suggesting this kind of crap. The game is already easy enough as it is, it doesn't need anything else throwing it's balance out of whack just because you can't be arsed to actually do something else while waiting.
And the waiting is not that bad. I mostly play past peak hours and never had to wait more than 5-7min for roulettes as dps. Jesus christ, get some help if you have waiting anxiety. It used to be MUCH worse before the tank/healer got changed so any brain-dead scrub could have the guts to pick it up.
It's amazing how all these new people love coming to the forums thinking they know better and always suggest the most ludicrous things. The game keeps loosing more and more gameplay nuances at every patch, it really is about time just stop throwing suggestions around so the game can cater to your oh so special needy needs.

It's like dealing with toxic positivity. We who take the game a bit more serious are always the bad guys.

Think the issue they have right now is that tanks and healers are needed so much more than DPS, the people who do play tanks and healers have leveled every single tank and healer to 90 already. I'm an omni-tank and it's all thanks to instant queues and riding on free bonus gil while laughing all my way to 90, and it's approx the same thing with healers.

The only point where I feel DPS even have a presence in determining an outcome in this game is at true end game content with enrage timers, otherwise they are worthless wisps that wander about without any sense of purpose except to get annoyed by how they die due to having paper thin armor. Not that I blame Black Mages for dying at lower levels since they don't even get triple cast until well into the level progression.

Every single dps, even ones that parse pink, are worthless. They have no mechanical function at all in the game that makes them useful except to reach arbitrary dps checks. They can't even heal anyone, they die from three to four hits on a GOOD day, they waste tens of thousands of gil on "name your main stat" tinctures being churned out by millionaire crafters and put themselves into poverty, and somehow the magic dps and melee dps aren't dead yet from a diet of sweet rolls and cheese burgers, which also cost a lot of gil and are manufactured by millionaire crafters. The only purpose worthless DPS scum have is to be a poor, destitute beggar that feed the financial appetites of alchemists and culinarians, with a once in a blue moon craft-a-thon gear making spree leading to fortunes for the other crafters, who are also living similarly useless lives except they can at least cling to the fact they make glamour items.