6.1 Samurai changes which needs to be reverted BY 6.2 Endwalker

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Originally Posted by Edweena

Theres a better solution to merging Guren and Senei, I too thought it was a good idea but further discussion has prompted ideas like...
https://i.imgur.com/wFsE734.jpeg
This should be the normalized idea instead of merging the abilities as it's quite literally the warrior's Fell Cleave into Inner Chaos under Nascent Chaos.
Saves 2 buttons instead of 1, and reduces drifting which lowers the skill floor, but maintains the skill ceiling since those at the ceiling were unlikely to even let CD's drift in the first place.

Merging Guren and Senei would be nice, but this would be sooooo much better, + we'd have room for new 2m CD's in 7.0!

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100% agreed and seconded on that notion. I'm really glad I haven't been the only one thinking of that.

Take notes, Square

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Originally Posted by Edweena

Theres a better solution to merging Guren and Senei, I too thought it was a good idea but further discussion has prompted ideas like...
https://i.imgur.com/wFsE734.jpeg
This should be the normalized idea instead of merging the abilities as it's quite literally the warrior's Fell Cleave into Inner Chaos under Nascent Chaos.
Saves 2 buttons instead of 1, and reduces drifting which lowers the skill floor, but maintains the skill ceiling since those at the ceiling were unlikely to even let CD's drift in the first place.

Merging Guren and Senei would be nice, but this would be sooooo much better, + we'd have room for new 2m CD's in 7.0!

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This is a much more elegant solution than just mashing the two into a single AOE that hits one target hard - hopefully it gets some more attention - haven't seen this idea kicked around in any of these threads until now.

holy crap, iki and ogi being the same button makes so much sense

So I stopped playing SAM after SB (the best) and lightly touched on it during ShB. And for EW I'm coming back to DPS because I desperately need a break from healing.

While I've been getting cozy with SMN, I have been playing SAM a bit just because I haven't really since ShB.

I don't share the same sentiment that SB SAM was the best there was a lot more thought put into it. Hagakure was something that set apart bad players from the good ones because messing up was punishing. Your Midares came every other loop which was why I liked it. There's balance of flashy and elegance. And aesthetically I want my character to swing his katana constantly, not building up and spending constantly so that when you do get to use Midares, it's 100% satisfying.

I didn't really think too much of ShB SAM purely because it was clear that it was the first expansion that they will simplify everything. And Ofc course we lost Hagakure and then only got it back as a means of Sen reseting. The job was functional but it showed that the devs wanted style over substance.

EW is where I realized that SAM is just another flashy job where they think getting to Midare so much is satisfying or fun. It's not and it doesn't feel good to use anymore because you get it so much. Removing Kaiten was just another step in simplifying jobs. And thy doesn't stop their issues.

Shoha can honestly be deleted as it does nothing. Ogi and Ikishoten not being the same button is so weird.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

This is a much more elegant solution than just mashing the two into a single AOE that hits one target hard - hopefully it gets some more attention - haven't seen this idea kicked around in any of these threads until now.

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Personally I would want Senei mashed with Guren. So not just the buttons, the Skills merged and literally fused.
- Senei retains original slash animation
- Senei inherits Guren's line projectile animation
- Senei original potency is kept on the first target hit
- Guren's Line AoE potency is kept after first target hit with fall off damage to targets hit after
- Cast animation time is not increased, kept the same as Senei duration.

The benefits would be the non-existing button bloat solution of 1 less, however... this keeps Guren playstyle for AoE-ing mobpacks, but also now Senei for single target? has become ranged, yet you could use it at Melee Range if you feel like it just like how we originally did it. Essentially this is a buff, even though its something that's not required we're getting the value of 2 skills for 1, either it's AoE impact with the first target hit getting hit for more and Senei now needlessly being ranged allowing us to cast it when say a boss casts a large AOE around itself. Not a big deal, not essential to have, but if it helps us get back Kaiten...

Animation wise, imagine these 2 slashing animations put together, including your characters animation slashing your sword back to back from Senei to Guren. And very important the cast animation is no longer then the original Senei/Guren

https://i.postimg.cc/Bn4j4zJS/Senei.png
https://i.postimg.cc/BnSnd1Ct/Guren.png


Edit: Honestly whichever solution for whatever less button bloat square things this will solve for the present and future. Not going to be disappointed if it doesn't happen, but whatever reasonable logical compromising changes it takes to get back Kaiten... just for the love of Master Musosai himself, give us back Kaiten

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Originally Posted by Edweena

Theres a better solution to merging Guren and Senei, I too thought it was a good idea but further discussion has prompted ideas like...
https://i.imgur.com/wFsE734.jpeg
This should be the normalized idea instead of merging the abilities as it's quite literally the warrior's Fell Cleave into Inner Chaos under Nascent Chaos.
Saves 2 buttons instead of 1, and reduces drifting which lowers the skill floor, but maintains the skill ceiling since those at the ceiling were unlikely to even let CD's drift in the first place.

Merging Guren and Senei would be nice, but this would be sooooo much better, + we'd have room for new 2m CD's in 7.0!

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Makes sense considering we really only use senei after popping ikishoten in the rotation anyways since their CD's line up to be the same.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

So I stopped playing SAM after SB (the best) and lightly touched on it during ShB. And for EW I'm coming back to DPS because I desperately need a break from healing.

While I've been getting cozy with SMN, I have been playing SAM a bit just because I haven't really since ShB.

I don't share the same sentiment that SB SAM was the best there was a lot more thought put into it. Hagakure was something that set apart bad players from the good ones because messing up was punishing. Your Midares came every other loop which was why I liked it. There's balance of flashy and elegance. And aesthetically I want my character to swing his katana constantly, not building up and spending constantly so that when you do get to use Midares, it's 100% satisfying.

I didn't really think too much of ShB SAM purely because it was clear that it was the first expansion that they will simplify everything. And Ofc course we lost Hagakure and then only got it back as a means of Sen reseting. The job was functional but it showed that the devs wanted style over substance.

EW is where I realized that SAM is just another flashy job where they think getting to Midare so much is satisfying or fun. It's not and it doesn't feel good to use anymore because you get it so much. Removing Kaiten was just another step in simplifying jobs. And thy doesn't stop their issues.

Shoha can honestly be deleted as it does nothing. Ogi and Ikishoten not being the same button is so weird.

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So...you WANT mindless shinten spam? Because that is all SB SAM was and its why they changed it in ShB. I disliked SB SAM for the same reason I dislike 6.1 SAM.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Personally I would want Senei mashed with Guren. So not just the buttons, the Skills merged and literally fused.
- Senei retains original slash animation
- Senei inherits Guren's line projectile animation
- Senei original potency is kept on the first target hit
- Guren's Line AoE potency is kept after first target hit with fall off damage to targets hit after
- Cast animation time is not increased, kept the same as Senei duration.

The benefits would be the non-existing button bloat solution of 1 less, however... this keeps Guren playstyle for AoE-ing mobpacks, but also now Senei for single target? has become ranged, yet you could use it at Melee Range if you feel like it just like how we originally did it. Essentially this is a buff, even though its something that's not required we're getting the value of 2 skills for 1, either it's AoE impact with the first target hit getting hit for more and Senei now needlessly being ranged allowing us to cast it when say a boss casts a large AOE around itself. Not a big deal, not essential to have, but if it helps us get back Kaiten...

Animation wise, imagine these 2 slashing animations put together, including your characters animation slashing your sword back to back from Senei to Guren. And very important the cast animation is no longer then the original Senei/Guren

Edit: Honestly whichever solution for whatever less button bloat square things this will solve for the present and future. Not going to be disappointed if it doesn't happen, but whatever reasonable logical compromising changes it takes to get back Kaiten... just for the love of Master Musosai himself, give us back Kaiten

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This is the idea I've seen suggested in multiple threads, and which I myself have offered, and I think it's fine, but I think Edweena's is even better.

The mash-them-together solution makes that Senei/Guren cooldown use the same button regardless of ST or AOE and frees up 1 button to fight bloat.

Edweena's solution turns Shinten and Kyoten into Senei and Guren when Ikishoten is used, keeping ST different than AOE, and freeing up 2 buttons to fight bloat.

I imagine both would feel fine in-game, but Edweena's solution frees up an extra button.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

So...you WANT mindless shinten spam? Because that is all SB SAM was and its why they changed it in ShB. I disliked SB SAM for the same reason I dislike 6.1 SAM.

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Tbf I don't mind Shinten because I like that there's something to do while setting up your next combo. Renoving Shinten is honestly just as bad as removing Kaiten IMO.

My point with comparing SB and EW is that in SB there was a sense of decision making and it wasn't always about hitting as much Midares as much as humanly possible. Because Midare doesn't feel special anymore because you're using it so often.

SB SAM wasn't perfect but it suffers from the dev obsessing accessiblity and this is why SAM is the way it is now.

Let's look RDM, the other SB job SAM got released with. RDM also was stuck in this transition of accessibility, and while RDM still has some issues–it's the prime example of adding QoL to a job without changing that original feeling. RDM feels good to play whereas SAM feels messy.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

Renoving Shinten is honestly just as bad as removing Kaiten IMO.

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Removing Kaiten broke the link between kenki and sen - the link between kenki and sen would be fine without Shinten.

Removing Kaiten broke the link between kenki and your rotation - the link between kenki and your rotation would be fine without Shinten.

Removing Kaiten made Iaijutsu weak, which made the entire build-up to Iaijutsu feel pointless - Iaijutsu and the entire build-up to Iaijutsu would be fine without Shinten.

Shinten was just a resource dump to fill in the gaps between Kaiten uses - without Kaiten the entire resource is just a dump.

Without Shinten we'd just get to Kaiten more liberally, but kenki would still require management and be part of your rotation - without Kaiten, kenki can be spent mindlessly - no management required, no timing required.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

Tbf I don't mind Shinten because I like that there's something to do while setting up your next combo. Renoving Shinten is honestly just as bad as removing Kaiten IMO.

My point with comparing SB and EW is that in SB there was a sense of decision making and it wasn't always about hitting as much Midares as much as humanly possible. Because Midare doesn't feel special anymore because you're using it so often.

SB SAM wasn't perfect but it suffers from the dev obsessing accessiblity and this is why SAM is the way it is now.

Let's look RDM, the other SB job SAM got released with. RDM also was stuck in this transition of accessibility, and while RDM still has some issues–it's the prime example of adding QoL to a job without changing that original feeling. RDM feels good to play whereas SAM feels messy.

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I never said anything about removing shinten. I just don't want to spam an ability that was designed to be a kenki dump skill and not something you used all the damn time.