Regarding the reaction to 6.1 SAM changes

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Originally Posted by Roxus

I have a hard time believing you read any of the constructive posts on the matter. Would you care to explain why none of our feedback is valid, then? Have you considered that possibly, the job isn't the issue, but rather how buffs, substats, and burst windows interact are? I'll make it easy for you and post it again. Yoshi P has touched upon the fact they want to get rid of the crit variance issue and the burst meta, alongside substat balance. However, that was supposed to be a change for everyone. Instead, they changed one job and left everything else as is, creating an issue where player exclusion is now becoming a thing, again. They should have introduced these changes at the same time as everyone else's changes to bring parity.

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I agree with what you're saying, the changes shouldn't stop with samurai but the entire 'burst meta' needs to be changed, as well as the fact almost every job in this game functions exactly the same way with the same copy paste buffs. It starts with the job that benefited the most from the current meta though which is undeniably samurai.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think that if Samurai players were really passionate about Kaiten, then by all means, bring it back.

What I don't respect, though, is the argument that SAM should have an even bigger dps lead over other melee jobs because it's so much more 'complex', that we constantly saw touted on the forums and reddit during 6.0. If you make that argument, you're pretty much begging the dev team to simplify your job and then nerf it back into equality. If you're content with the gameplay on your job, then it's best to lay low and let jobs that actually need the dev team focus get it.

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https://i.imgur.com/tlYqSbR.png

I have a Lv.90 SAM. To reiterate.

Jobs within a given role should be balanced in terms of dps output, utility, etc. The 'complexity' argument will always fall flat because nobody wants to invest time into a job only to discover that it's ineffective at higher skill levels. So when you argue that your 'complex' job should be the unrivaled top dps, the solution is always going to be to make your job less 'complex' in order to ensure dps parity. This really is not rocket science.

I think that if you genuinely enjoyed Samurai's gameplay as it was, then the gameplay should be adjusted accordingly. You're really passionate about Kaiten? Great, let's bring it back.

But the instant that you argue that Kaiten made SAM more 'complex' and that, as a more 'complex' job SAM should be the unrivaled top dps, you're going to get no sympathy from anyone else. We've all invested time into our preferred jobs, so a bit of mutual respect is in order. Everyone wants to be rewarded for their efforts.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I have a Lv.90 SAM. To reiterate.

Jobs within a given role should be balanced in terms of dps output, utility, etc. The 'complexity' argument will always fall flat because nobody wants to invest time into a job only to discover that it's ineffective at higher skill levels. So when you argue that your 'complex' job should be the unrivaled top dps, the solution is always going to be to make your job less 'complex' in order to ensure dps parity. This really is not rocket science.

I think that if you genuinely enjoyed Samurai's gameplay as it was, then the gameplay should be adjusted accordingly. You're really passionate about Kaiten? Great, let's bring it back.

But the instant that you argue that Kaiten made SAM more 'complex' and that, as a more 'complex' job SAM should be the unrivaled top dps, you're going to get no sympathy from anyone else. We've all invested time into our preferred jobs, so a bit of mutual respect is in order. Everyone wants to be rewarded for their efforts.

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I have all jobs to 90. It doesn't mean that I play them all at a raid level, so that comment means nothing.

Also, who are you talking to? Nobody mentioned the complexity of the job here.

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Originally Posted by Awkward

I agree with what you're saying, the changes shouldn't stop with samurai but the entire 'burst meta' needs to be changed, as well as the fact almost every job in this game functions exactly the same way with the same copy paste buffs. It starts with the job that benefited the most from the current meta though which is undeniably samurai.

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I'm glad you agree. However, to say it should start with Samurai without including any other change, as said before, invites discrimination. And I have dealt with that discrimination before in Stormblood. Please understand why this isn't necessarily a good change alone, ignoring how I feel about the gameplay disruption of removing Kaiten.

Personally, I find all the damage and synergy complaints on Sam quite null (the synergy because it's 2 minute buffs). Changing the dps a job does can be done fairly easily in .x1, .x5, .x8 patches and to an extent and to an extent, they have some dps comparison they want out the jobs so if they want sam to get their dps reduced relative to the rest, they will do so. Complaining about it can be valid if this results in the pf hypocrisy where it gets very hard to get in a party like we saw with summoner at 6.0 (granted, for a different stupid reason). Samurai isn't having it that bad and from my understanding people know that making such an argument right now would be an exaggeration.

So that leaves kaiten. And I think that part of the things I saw and read have been on a base close to what Lyth wrote:
Samurai does some of the highest dps and lacks party buffing
Therefore the job is relatively more complex and deserves to be so,
Therefore the removal of kaiten implies removal of the complexity that the job SHOULD have.

My personal gripe is not with Sam exactly but more with bard having been praised for the whole procs on songs simplification (among other things compared to media tour version) and people praising that 6.0 EW design (I never cared about dps or that bard was top of ranged rdps in EW). So without attributing this to everyone here annoyed with the removal of kaiten, it kind of feels like double standards to me.

Homogenization of classes to make things simpler to learn is fine. Having different levels of skill enhance different levels of play ruin the people's enjoyment of the class in different environments is honestly a result of the "Fear of Missing Out" syndrome where you do not get the best results because you missed a weaponskill or ability within a certain window or the fight cuts off at a certain period of time.

I believe that it is fine to have classes that are rewarded for more damage for their level of play in terms of complexity because all achievements and feats are performed based on your merit, your performance and your consistency. Dragging a class down because its damage output as a result of its performance and complexities created an environment where you are literally just all the is very bland. People should look at a class and understand that its performance is based on the class and that while it should not outstrip everyone else by a "wide" margin, it should still pull ahead. There are many nuances and degrees to the situation in which performance affects classes.

Back in Shadowbringers, SAM and BLM were obviously some of the best classes for damage that you could bring to a fight that did not force downtime on anyone as a result of their rotations offering consistent damage over long periods of times but SMN had a distinct advantage of being able to recoup or ready their burst for fights that had downtime allowing them to match or even exceed BLM and SAM in something like TEA. There was also the added bonus of brining an extra Raise which could save the run assuming your goal was to farm totems or clear whereas SAM and BLM could guarantee you the faster clear or meet a DPS check assuming adequate skill and situation. You cannot just look at a -3 DPS loss and assume right off the bat this will not change how SAM plays. You cannot trivialize identity by camouflaging it with no net damage loss. That is not the only factor you should be observing because the main crux of the issue that most people bring up is the loss of identity and complexity which has resulted in a loss of satisfaction in the class.

Removing Kaiten also allows for different development of Samurai in general.
Introducing any new weaponskills while Kaiten exists risks lot of unintended consequences.
"Oops, the new weaponskill has too much potency, now SAM rotation is just spamming it with Kaiten"

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Originally Posted by Ayche

Removing Kaiten also allows for different development of Samurai in general.
Introducing any new weaponskills while Kaiten exists risks lot of unintended consequences.
"Oops, the new weaponskill has too much potency, now SAM rotation is just spamming it with Kaiten"

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How about I just remove your Summon Bahamut because adding skills will create an interaction that is not conducive to your rotation? How about I just remove something that enhances your rotation because the interaction is just an overall negative to you because I think pressing an extra button a few too many times is too much for you to handle because I justify the lack of ability with "button bloat"?

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Originally Posted by Ayche

Removing Kaiten also allows for different development of Samurai in general.
Introducing any new weaponskills while Kaiten exists risks lot of unintended consequences.
"Oops, the new weaponskill has too much potency, now SAM rotation is just spamming it with Kaiten"

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That's... not how that works. Kaiten isn't gatekeeping anything from being added to the job. If a situation like that occurred, that would be a problem with the new skill, not Kaiten.