Is Everyone Playing BLM wrong?

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Originally Posted by Xander_Diabolos

Side note: I am 85 right now. I imagine the following changes as I get to 90.

Amplifier: Increases chances I get to Xenoglossy when I want to.
Paradox: Fire III, Fire IV x3, Paradox, Fire IV x3, Despair, Transpose, Xenoglossy(otherwise Paradox if no Polyglot), Blizzard IV, Thunder III, repeat

Fire III's potency is 260*1.8=468 for the second Fire III so Paradox at 500 unaspected is better to refresh duration of Astral Fire.

Fire IV's potency is still 310*1.8=558 which is higher than 500 so still should be trying to do as many Fire IV as possible.

Paradox's 0 mp cost makes it better than Blizzard IV to follow Despair, but still wanna cast it once for 3 Umbral Hearts.

Paradox also is a good alternative to Scathe due to it's 0 casting time when umbral ice (if need to move and triple cast is down). Transpose and then Paradox spam until you can stay still again.

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...58/unknown.png

Not sure I would use your level 90 rotation either.

EDIT:
Some more error correct even though it has a lot of scuffed math :3

Before you're gonna say "oh but my rotation flexes Xenoglossy instead of paradox"

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...16/unknown.png

Fire deals 180 potency over a 2.5s cast, which is 72 per second. However, it can proc Firestarter 40% of the time, which, even when simply thrown in Astral rather than used to swap, is 260 over 2.5s. If you do a weighted average you see that Fire has an actual potency per second of 78.4.

Fire III deals 260 potency over a 3.5s cast, which is 74.3 per second.

This isn't even getting into the problem of Fire III consuming over twice the MP of Fire. If you're going to refresh Astral, you should always do it with Fire, not Fire III. There are also some issues with never using Blizzard III but they're less egregious than this mistake.

Alright fuck it I'm bored enough at work to bite.

Let's just assume(like you are)that no buffs are in play minus passive buffs from BLM itself and include in:
Astral fire: halves ice spells cast time at 3 stacks
Umbral ice: halves fire spells cast time at 3 stacks
First and foremost, you can get 6 Fire IVs in the standard rotation and the despair, you're assuming that people despair at 6k mana(800+800+800+1600 for the four Fire IVs + the rest for despair) which is just flat out wrong.

Alright second cast times. Okay so standard rotation vs OP: the post assumes we're coming in from a blizzard 4 and not standstill with a 2.5gcd across the board.

Fire3
Standard: 1.75s cast
OP: 3.5s cast(because OP never gets 3 umbral ice stacks with transpose)

Fire IV x2 for both: same values(5s)

Astral fire refresh
Standard: N/A triplecast + Fire IV(2.5s recast)
OP: 3.5(Fire 3)

Fire + despair
Standard: Fire IV + despair(2gcds = 5s)
OP: Fire IV x3, despair (4 gcds= 10s)

Blizzard
Standard: Blizzard 3 + Blizzard 4(1.75s+2.5s=4.25s)
OP: Transpose + 2x Blizzard 4s or paradox/xenoglossy (5s total)

Thunder:same values(2.5s)

Total time spent before repeat
Standard: 21 seconds
OP: 29.5 seconds

For every 3 OP rotations, we have 4 standards

Take P1s as the golden dummy fight since theres absolutely 0 downtime at hmm I think 8:30 is pretty generous for kill time, that's 510s. Standard as listed would be 24.28 repeats, OP would have 17.28, just toss out the decimals and go with 24 standard vs 17 OP.

Now lets put in OPs calculated potencies and multiply by the number of repeats.

Standard: 5732 x 24 = 137,568
OP: 7410 x 17 = 125,970

Look at that, OP scuffed standard rotation even loses out versus the rotation they posted. OP can't even compare both because the proposed standard has 8.5 seconds left, that's 3 full gcds the OP is just willfully cutting out.

Please go back to the drawing board and come back when you have something that works, otherwise learn the standard opener, your level 90 parties will thank you later.

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Originally Posted by Xander_Diabolos

Enhanced Sharpcast gives ability to proc Thundercloud an additional time.
Paradox I listed predicted changes to rotation.
People don't have to be 90 to make a good point. Lots of things I'm talking about I have been doing since Heavensward release. Recent changes just brought me to the forums.

Do you have the discord link?

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So... funny thing happened... I joined Discord and found this...
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...h.n62znhrbg8uc

Under "Intermediate" Under "Double Paradox" includes not only using "Transpose" to get MP back, but also using it to chance proc for Firestarter.
"Standard + 3xF4 Double Transpose F3P [N76]" Is more what I was looking at. In fact the document outlines everything I have been saying with additional ideas.
Transpose, Sharpcast, Paradox is a good addition to guarantee a Firestarter proc... but will have to do some math to verify which way I like better.

I do find it funny though it goes from "watch them immediately tell you why you're incorrect in every way" and "everything you're saying is invalid" to "Intermediate Non-Standard BLM Guide".

Why are you saying anything if you're not capped at 90. The whole reason why Fire IV was buffed to 310 is because Paradox was too close of Fire IV DPS and Paradox Mage became a thing. Paradox Mage is a meme that shouldn't exist like Dragon Kick spam Monk right now.

You shouldn't calc things as pure potency but the potency per second.

310 *1.8 from Astral Fire is 558 Potency for 2.8s. 199.28 PPS.
500 Potency from Paradox in a 2.5s is 200 PPS.

With BiS Spellspeed
558 Potency for Fire IV in 2.47s = 225.91 PPS
500 Potency from Paradox under 2.2s is 227.27 PPS

Back in ShB, I recalled people skipping Blizzard IV because Fire I wasn't great but because it turns into a spell that deals better damage than Fire IV in which, can be used in both your form, you probably should stick to use Fire I until you're level 90.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xander_Diabolos

So... funny thing happened... I joined Discord and found this...
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...h.n62znhrbg8uc

Under "Intermediate" Under "Double Paradox" includes not only using "Transpose" to get MP back, but also using it to chance proc for Firestarter.
"Standard + 3xF4 Double Transpose F3P [N76]" Is more what I was looking at. In fact the document outlines everything I have been saying with additional ideas.
Transpose, Sharpcast, Paradox is a good addition to guarantee a Firestarter proc... but will have to do some math to verify which way I like better.

I do find it funny though it goes from "watch them immediately tell you why you're incorrect in every way" and "everything you're saying is invalid" to "Intermediate Non-Standard BLM Guide".

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Replacing Blizzard III with Transpose is a sometimes food. In 6.0 it gave you a very marginal bonus in exchange for being extremely MP tick sensitive, restricting your movement even more than normal, and requiring you to have several instant cast procs lined up in order to make sure you didn't clip any GCDs. (Doing hardcast Despair into Transpose into umbral Paradox, for instance, slows you down by the ~0.7s of Transpose's animation). As of 6.08, in which Fire IV, Fire III, and Blizzard III have all been buffed, using Transpose instead of Blizzard III to enter Umbral Ice is less of a marginal gain, and might not be one at all.

Like I said, the really worrying thing about your gameplay is that you're apparently hardcasting Fire III in the middle of your astral cycle. That's an extremely bad idea, even if you're defraying its cost with your last umbral heart.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Why are you saying anything if you're not capped at 90. The whole reason why Fire IV was buffed to 310 is because Paradox was too close of Fire IV DPS and Paradox Mage became a thing. Paradox Mage is a meme that shouldn't exist like Dragon Kick spam Monk right now.

You shouldn't calc things as pure potency but the potency per second.

310 *1.8 from Astral Fire is 558 Potency for 2.8s. 199.28 PPS.
500 Potency from Paradox in a 2.5s is 200 PPS.

With BiS Spellspeed
558 Potency for Fire IV in 2.47s = 225.91 PPS
500 Potency from Paradox under 2.2s is 227.27 PPS

Back in ShB, I recalled people skipping Blizzard IV because Fire I wasn't great but because it turns into a spell that deals better damage than Fire IV in which, can be used in both your form, you probably should stick to use Fire I until you're level 90.

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Astral Fire isn't a spell... Fire IV is, but I know what you mean.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...J2Sykbrw/edit#
I found a good source for PPS.

High level BLM concepts has... (I think they added in casting frames)
Xenoglossy = 304 PPS
Despair = 197.42 PPS
Fire IV (AF) = 192.41 PPS
Paradox (AF) = 192.31 PPS
Fire III (AF3) = 187.2 PPS
Fire = 119.23 PPS
Fire III (UI3) = 72.8 PPS
Blizzard III (AF3) = 72.8 PPS
I can see potential Fire to refresh AF3 if it means I get another Fire IV in.

Cast Order: Fire III, Fire IV, Fire IV, Fire III, Fire IV, Fire IV, Fire IV, Despair
Total Potency: 4130
Total Time: 20.5
201 PPS

Cast Order: Fire III, Fire IV, Fire IV, Fire IV, Fire, Fire IV, Fire IV, Fire IV, Despair
Total Potency: 4544
Total Time: 22.3
203 PPS

With Fire III having higher PPS than Fire... I figured it would be better, but it does appear to be slightly higher with fire due to the additional MP to cast another Fire IV before refreshing astral fire. The reason I am looking into it before I am 90 is so I know how to do things when I am 90.

I do still like my Transpose vs Blizzard III idea since Transpose is still off global cooldown and only 72.8 PPS

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Originally Posted by Tsunari96

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...58/unknown.png

Not sure I would use your level 90 rotation either.

EDIT:
Some more error correct even though it has a lot of scuffed math :3

Before you're gonna say "oh but my rotation flexes Xenoglossy instead of paradox"

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...16/unknown.png

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I just noticed something... Is the reason people do Blizzard III to save 1 second on Fire III cast to start the rotation again? Was looking at the first Fire III of the rotation on both and it got confusing on different PPS until I looked up Umbral Ice again. I could use swift cast to get rid of that annoying Fire III cast timer instead of Blizzard III. If you do look after Despair Left (318.5) vs Right (306.2) at 12.3 difference and then again at the end (299.8) vs (293.5) there is only 6.3 difference. So it made up some damage at the end. By removing Blizzard III still has higher DPS as long as you can remove the initial Fire III casting time issue (swiftcast or triple cast).

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...J2Sykbrw/edit#
I did find some stuff in here that flexes "Sharpcast Paradox" that essentially does the same thing as Blizzard III as well in terms putting Fire III at 2.5 seconds by proc'ing Firestarter. Since this can be done from Astral Fire I you could technically "Transpose, Sharpcast, Paradox, Fire III" vs doing Blizzard III (500 potency paradox vs 260 Blizzard III). Then do transpose again after Despair to get MP back while doing Thunder/Xenoglossy.

Seems like it is a better rotation to remove Blizzard III due to its low PPS, but I think I went the wrong way to do it and sacrificed the Fire III casting time when trying to and potentially hurt my damage over time without realizing it.
Will have to do some looking into Sharpcast Thunderstorm to make sure I don't loose too much from that by doing "Transpose Sharpcast Paradox".

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Originally Posted by Xander_Diabolos

I just noticed something... Is the reason people do Blizzard III to save 1 second on Fire III cast to start the rotation again?

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This chart is scuffed but enough to explain what's happening OUTSIDE of simple chain of GCD casting. When the BLM has 3 stacks of one element, the next opposite element spell has significantly less cast time. and this exact 1 second cast allows BLM to minimize the loss of DPS caused by what's commonly known as "GCD clip."

On the left chart, it shows FIII recast time is 2.33s. However, the actual cast time is 1.69s because having 3 umbral stack significantly reduces the time you spend on casting. In other words, you would only spend 1.69s to cast a spell and have 0.64s of "free time" until you can cast next spell. This little wiggle room allows BLM to have a guaranteed slot to use an OGCD.

On the right chart, which is your rotation, does exactly opposite because default FIII cast time is 3.26s while your recast time is 2.33s. This means you're spending longer time casting FIII than you should. That's right, you're spending 0.93s longer. even if you could have casted FIV.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...52/unknown.png

This means every 2~3 rotations repeated, you lost a cast of FIV and this is accumulative. By the nature of BLM, this is heavily consequential and the gap between standard opener and your proposed opener widens more and more.

This gap widens even more when you want to "weave in" OGCD like triple cast. In a super simplified manner, when considering this...

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...00/unknown.png

As you can see this in image, you are stuck at Triplecast animation and its delay causes you to wait even longer until you can cast FIV. Unlike that, the 1.69s FIII allows you to use Triplecast with minimized delay to the point it can be negligible.

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Originally Posted by Xander_Diabolos

I did find some stuff in here that flexes "Sharpcast Paradox" that essentially does the same thing as Blizzard III as well in terms putting Fire III at 2.5 seconds by proc'ing Firestarter. Since this can be done from Astral Fire I you could technically "Transpose, Sharpcast, Paradox, Fire III" vs doing Blizzard III (500 potency paradox vs 260 Blizzard III). Then do transpose again after Despair to get MP back while doing Thunder/Xenoglossy.

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It doesn't work as nicely as you think because, once again, your rotation does not have any room to use OGCD without forcing a delay due to OGCD animation lock. Of course, you can use xenoglossy or procced Thunder/FIII to weave an OGCD but you must understand that standard opener can do that as well. It's like comparing a gaining an advantage vs already having an advantage AND gain another. it's 0/+1 vs +1/+1.

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Originally Posted by Xander_Diabolos

So I am told over and over that I am doing things wrong as Black Mage, but based on my understanding on how things work my way actually works better.

Other people: Fire III, Fire IV x2, Triple Cast, Fire IV x2, Despair, Blizzard III, Blizzard IV, Thunder III, repeat

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Well there's you're problem, that's not how the job is actually played. If you're comparing your crap rotation to a crap rotation (and holy crap your assumptions are offbase) you won't come out with valid results.

First there's no mention of time in your analysis, and that means you're missing the 'ps' part of 'dps.'

So here's a better example of where you go wrong. A Caveat for the third rotation: That's just me making something off the top of my head, the no-brain rotation, the 'I don't play this job but this seems legitimate' rotation, the 'I'm sure BLMs will go on into detail about better practices but this is fine enough to make my point' rotation.

https://i.imgur.com/5RvkSP9.png

Notice I'm neglecting the prepull blizzard III->Blizzard IV to start things off to get your three umbral hearts. That's common to all three, won't make a difference. I'm also not including Magick and Mend or Enochian because that's a common multiplier and adding it won't help with comparisons anyways. Also not weighing in with the Ice phase Paradox, cause that's like... not salient to the core points I need to make.

In almost the same time as you I've gotten in 1300 more potency than you. So that's gains. But to make matters worse, because you take 4.9 more seconds to get through your rotation than the 'bad strawman' rotation you're trying to compare to, while you get in more potency overall, your potency per second is actually 4 pps less than the rotation you're trying to say is worse! You're actually doing worse than the bad strawman rotation you're trying to present!

Now, before Paradox, in the third rotation you'd replace the Paradox with Fire I and that'd reduce the potency by 176 and the overall pps by around 6, but that's still WAYYYYYYYYY the hell ahead of what you've presented. So this isn't even a 'your rotation needs to be level 90 to git gud' issue it's 'your rotation isn't gud on its face' issue.

And here's the worst part: I don't think my rotation is optimal. It's hastily thrown together, has nothing close to optimization tricks or any of the voodoo BLM optimizers do or anything. I'm not at all knowledgeable in that regard.

But holy crap it takes less than 30 seconds to cobble together a rotation better than.... this display.