Ninja DPS Output(A possible Fix)

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Originally Posted by Bureda

I want to be able to use Hide in combat, that is what they should be working towards, it effectively lets you double up all mudras and also doubles up as job idenity but if they added that as it stands currently it would break the game. Hide SHOULD be used in combat.

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While stealthing in-combat may work well in other games, it requires having decent mechanics linked to it. As it is now, NIN only has Trick Attack which is already used with Suiton and I don't see SE adding more mechanics to the job - the tendency in general is to remove things, not add, as much as I dislike it. The only reason Hide resets ninjutsu currently is because it can only be used out of combat, it's there to make Huton upkeep smoother and not have NIN's ask their raid groups for 25 second countdowns. Letting us reset like that in combat would be a total mess, we already use nijutsu a lot as is.

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Originally Posted by Bureda

People assume ninja is a support role like dancer because of trick attack. It's ridiculous that the skill has so much identity and the boomers of this game fear change and adaptability and are hardstuck with that mentality.

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People think about NIN as a utility job, because that is what it used to be for most of its existence and SE still talks about it like that, despite removing all the utility. It was only in 5.0 when all NIN utility was axed and they were left with just a raid buff in Trick Attack. Before that NIN used to have 2 very useful enmity manipulation skills and an ability to recover other people's TP(physical gcd resource akin to MP, which has been axed in 5.0).

Trick is central to NIN's gameplay loop and it would be stupid to remove it. Devs just need to stop overvaluing its rDPS contribution and taxing the job too heavily in aDPS because of it.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

As for actual potency buffs, I think it should capitalise on burst to make use of the Yrick window, so a buff to say DwaD or Hyoton, anything you solely use for Trick, would be good.

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I'm not sure it's a good idea to push even more of NIN's output into burst, it's already pretty high as it is. It might be better to just slap some potency on the weaponskills or increase their ninki gains to also improve apm outside of TA. The second option could potentially also fix the current "Bhava right before TA" weirdness, if calculated correctly.

Of course buffing weaponskills in any way would likely need a second look at burst gcds so that they don't fall behind, however NIN has plenty of room for buffs currently so it shouldn't be an issue.

Change trick to 3% and buff them to high heaven.
This games philosophy of raid buffs and the mentality of buffing someone else increases your damage is kinda weird and tiring tbh. Remove all that and give us talent trees, perhaps bite the bullet and be active on balancing for a better experience all round. I mean the same damn rotations for 2 years in a row every two years. And most time with only minor adjustments after two years. No variety.

Thats why the dps role is arguably boring outside of dopamine hits. Healers and Tanks are more interesting in general, so long as you play them for the role and not for the communities request of damage bot.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

While stealthing in-combat may work well in other games, it requires having decent mechanics linked to it. As it is now, NIN only has Trick Attack which is already used with Suiton and I don't see SE adding more mechanics to the job - the tendency in general is to remove things, not add, as much as I dislike it. The only reason Hide resets ninjutsu currently is because it can only be used out of combat, it's there to make Huton upkeep smoother and not have NIN's ask their raid groups for 25 second countdowns. Letting us reset like that in combat would be a total mess, we already use nijutsu a lot as is.



People think about NIN as a utility job, because that is what it used to be for most of its existence and SE still talks about it like that, despite removing all the utility. It was only in 5.0 when all NIN utility was axed and they were left with just a raid buff in Trick Attack. Before that NIN used to have 2 very useful enmity manipulation skills and an ability to recover other people's TP(physical gcd resource akin to MP, which has been axed in 5.0).

Trick is central to NIN's gameplay loop and it would be stupid to remove it. Devs just need to stop overvaluing its rDPS contribution and taxing the job too heavily in aDPS because of it.



I'm not sure it's a good idea to push even more of NIN's output into burst, it's already pretty high as it is. It might be better to just slap some potency on the weaponskills or increase their ninki gains to also improve apm outside of TA. The second option could potentially also fix the current "Bhava right before TA" weirdness, if calculated correctly.

Of course buffing weaponskills in any way would likely need a second look at burst gcds so that they don't fall behind, however NIN has plenty of room for buffs currently so it shouldn't be an issue.

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Hmm. After you use your burst or opener and you're building up for the next rotation you can throw one Raiton there and then there's a few seconds of dead wait time where you're waiting for Trick. Hide could be used in that window. The job is busy, but I think this is not the job that should have the option of here's one skill to use when you stand still and here's one to use that helps you position. Just feels awkward.

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Originally Posted by Bureda

Hmm. After you use your burst or opener and you're building up for the next rotation you can throw one Raiton there and then there's a few seconds of dead wait time where you're waiting for Trick. Hide could be used in that window. The job is busy, but I think this is not the job that should have the option of here's one skill to use when you stand still and here's one to use that helps you position. Just feels awkward.

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You shouldn't have any Raitons "left" for outside of TA unless you need to move some out of burst for the sake of uptime. You get 3 natural(non Kassatsu, non TCJ) Ninjutsu uses per minute, 2 of those end in TA and one is used outside of burst for Suiton in order to set up TA. I don't think there really is a need for more Ninjutsu outside TA. I like my blade play - it is fitting both to the rogue roots of the job and ninjas in general, it shouldn't all be just magic tricks - and we've already lost a lot of it with the 5.1 rework. What I'd prefer to add more variety in downtime would be giving us back the Shadowfang combo and maybe some more weaving (which could be the earlier mentioned extra Bhavas or some new, short ogcd).

I don't really feel any "awkwardness" with how Raijus work now - having a meaningful, situational choice between two skills with same damage and different utility feels pretty damn good actually. If anything, NIN is exactly the job that should have an option like this, since it gives that feeling of thinking on the fly and being able to improvise - both skills very important for any rogue, spy or assassin - and mechanically it enforces the flexibility NIN has been valued for in SHB.

I'll be honest the moment you said that a gap closer is as meaningful as a standing still skill my brain short circuited so I will assume you're being sarcastic. So here's some sarcasm.

It's a good thing the clown event is happening soon. I look forward to jesting.

After all, mudras are all about standing in melee range.

I for one I am grateful that Square has taken away choice and replaced it with a meaningless option. But at least it's there and it makes me feel smart.

Gap closers? No thanks. It hurts to think.
Another combo? No thanks. Think of the controller people.
Utility? I've yet to see it on the Ninja but I guess I will pretend to have played the job in the ages past so I can garner pointless attention from older players.

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Originally Posted by Bureda

I'll be honest the moment you said that a gap closer is as meaningful as a standing still skill my brain short circuited so I will assume you're being sarcastic.

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Lemme guess - you haven't really ran savage as a melee yet, have you? Not a dis btw, just that would explain why you don't see a value in a regular, melee weapon skill vs a gap closer, as it doesn't come up nearly as much in non-optimized, casual content.

See, in a lot of the harder fights you have to be way more careful about your movement while still trying to maintain your uptime. You might have to execute your burst on the move, stay at max melee range in order to not get hit by a point-blank AoE that extends past the enemy hitbox or simply stay put in your assigned position in order to execute a mechanic which would wipe the group if you mess it up. In all of these situations a gap closer bringing you to the edge of the target's hitbox is a liability - that's the main reason people had an issue with the original iteration of Raijus ever since we've learnt how they work - and in those situations Fleeting being a regular melee attack becomes utility.

On the other hand, if you have to completely disengage for a time during your burst, Forked may be the better option as it can be executed at range and brings you back into melee instantly. Hence both skills offer different utility options and can be better or worse depending on the situation.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Lemme guess - you haven't really ran savage as a melee yet, have you? Not a dis btw, just that would explain why you don't see a value in a regular, melee weapon skill vs a gap closer, as it doesn't come up nearly as much in non-optimized, casual content.

See, in a lot of the harder fights you have to be way more careful about your movement while still trying to maintain your uptime. You might have to execute your burst on the move, stay at max melee range in order to not get hit by a point-blank AoE that extends past the enemy hitbox or simply stay put in your assigned position in order to execute a mechanic which would wipe the group if you mess it up. In all of these situations a gap closer bringing you to the edge of the target's hitbox is a liability - that's the main reason people had an issue with the original iteration of Raijus ever since we've learnt how they work - and in those situations Fleeting being a regular melee attack becomes utility.

On the other hand, if you have to completely disengage for a time during your burst, Forked may be the better option as it can be executed at range and brings you back into melee instantly. Hence both skills offer different utility options and can be better or worse depending on the situation.

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Let me guess you like to talk and type without playing the game. Theorycrafting Andy over here liking the sound of his own typing.

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Originally Posted by Bureda

Let me guess you like to talk and type without playing the game. Theorycrafting Andy over here liking the sound of his own typing.

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Bud, I have given you a pretty clear explanation, with examples of various situations which I have ran into several times while doing content on ninja in this game, along with how the differences between the two skills apply to said situations. You're the one talking out of your behind about how something "feels" awkward.

I personally still don't feel like the old Raiju were a problem ( yes I've done the two first Savage at least, I started last weekend and had irl issues + shitty groups getting in the way but I am moving on to the next two soon ).
Granted they were already changed when I started doing it but I don't think it should've been an issue rly but it's not my main issue rly with the changes.
With that said I don't necessarily mind making them two options either.
My issue is that we lost 3 Raijus in the process, I liked using 6 Raijus.

The main issue that needed to be solved imo was to make them not break on weapon skills.
Give us two stacks per Raiton back and make them not break on weapon skills.

This would actually add some extra depth to NIN too in that it would allow us to stock a charge for charging back to the boss when we know we'll have to disengage soon.

So long as jobs are balanced around 8-man content, portioning a job even more towards rDPS is really just nerfing its solo / light party potential. NIN has low enough aDPS relative to rDPS as is. We're not Bards. We don't need to be even more gutless when alone.

I'd rather just first buff potencies over what level spans it's most behind and then buff Raijuu potency for what level cap difference remains.

NIN should be a top-rDPS job (not referring to having the most support as some seem to mistake rDPS for of late, but simply personal damage dealt + bonus damage given to party - bonus damage received from party). It's both one of the busiest jobs and has literally no utility, at this point, not already accounted for in said rDPS.

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Some related notes:

• I don't think the old Raijuu combo was a problem, but at my low ping, the "self-stun" of Forked Raijuu was under a quarter-second so long as I was already at the edge of the enemy's hitbox or nearer, so take that with a grain of salt.
  In terms of flow and flair, I preferred having that combo over the single-GCD Raijuu now. I just would have preferred a slight bit more flexibility on them, such as by decreasing Forked Raijuu Ready's duration to 5 seconds (and 5s of Fleeting Raijuu Ready thereafter) but not having the proc be removed by other actions (nor, obviously, to break any other combo chains, etc.).
• I don't want to see Hide usable in combat if it keeps its CD refreshes. We already do some 5 Ninjutsu practically back-to-back every other minute. Added an extra two Mudra into each odd-minute window, opposite TCJ, would just make Ninjutsu feel beyond spammy. Nor do I want to see Hide as an alternative to trick attack such that we can do 3 gainful Suiton per minute (TA, Meisui, and Hide for 2 free Ninjutsu casts thereafter).
• I would want to see further rotational variance, such as by returning Shadowfang (as a rotational combo finisher, not a CD) to the mix.