What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Lily_Skye

https://i.imgur.com/ZJ3dtiO.png

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I dunno, I kinda agree with it. I was not a fan of the story as a whole this time around, and the points OP made were definitely some of my complaints with it.

Not everything needs to be discarded as bait just because it goes against the main consensus.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

This one is more speculation, but it's due to the fact that if she did do anything other than what she did do, we wouldn't have had anything to go back to. It would potentially not have existed as per any time paradox that would happen from changing any major point in history. It at least allowed her to be able to prepare her champions in a way she saw fit to be able to at least attempt to stop Meteion.

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I'm a big Doctor Who nerd, and time loops come into play now and then. While I don't love how they handled the Venat situation (with her knowing everything and not really doing much), I can at least accept that this was a paradox that had to play out just as it did.....otherwise it would never have happened at all. However, I can appreciate that some people may not enjoy that type of storyline as it can feel like a cheap excuse for leaving a bunch of loose ends in the story, only for everything to suddenly work out just fine because it was a paradox.

Can't please everyone though, but I am happy that it seems the majority of players enjoyed how it all wrapped up. ShB will still be my baby ;)

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I dunno, I kinda agree with it. I was not a fan of the story as a whole this time around, and the points OP made were definitely some of my complaints with it.

Not everything needs to be discarded as bait just because it goes against the main consensus.

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Same, i agree with most of it as well, only thing i disagree with is the Zodiark evil final boss thing, but i do think they couldve done so much more than just make him a random throwaway boss. They didnt even acknowledge him saving the world whereas venat and hydaelyn for some reason get all the praise despite the shitty things they did.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

It has pacing issues, sure.

But to address some of the points here to the best of my understanding.

Zodiark was still sundered, so he wasn't as powerful as he was on his original summoning prior to his sundering. The only thing that happened was the seal on him was broken. This shattering only broke his imprisonment. He was powerful, but not nearly as powerful as how the unsundered know him to be. This point is also a little bit weird, because the argument could just be made of "why didn't they just do this then to break his seal, instead of the rejoining escapades" - and I think the key difference here is that Fandaniel wasn't concerned with the methods, just the result, to which his methods could have potentially prevented bringing back / restoring the mankind that they knew.

I'd have liked it if there was more on the causality of the final days as opposed to it being a projection of emotions on the celestial currents (as I understand it).

We still don't know the length of time between Meteion leaving the planet and when the final days started to hit the planet(?), not only that Emet-Selch had openly admitted that their methods would not have carried mankind so far. The ancients weren't concerned with solving the fundamental cause of it as they were with just delaying the inevitable and feeding Zodiark to resurrect the sacrificed. Plus, I am pretty sure that the ancients didn't have the ability to manipulate/manifest dynamis given how dense their own aether is, and to my knowledge it is the abundance of aether which drowns out dynamis. The ancients were so crippled by their own despair that even trying to fight against dynamis or manifest it would have been nigh on futile.

At least this is the perspective I have on the story, and I think with her actions, and the 'reasoning' for them is precisely why she's ultimately a well developed character.

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True about Zodiark, and yet he was basically just thrown away as the hidden antagonist that was built over several expansions already ~1/5-1/6 into Endwalker.

I won't let the point about the ancients lacking dynamis count, as one of their own, Hermes, did just fine in creating a dynamis being in Meteion, something which Venat, the former seat of Azem, and Emet-Selch should've easily been able to learn given their character backgrounds.

for the Zodiark complaint:
After SHB I feel that it was clear that Zodiark wasn't a big bad. He wasn't even a bad. Zodiark was essentially a sentient shield and once Elidibus was dead so went the "sentient" part of "sentient shield". While I do whish he were a bit more involved in the story, I think it would have been a bigger disservice to him/Elidibus had he been revealed as actually evil all along in the eleventh hour.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

This point is also a little bit weird, because the argument could just be made of "why didn't they just do this then to break his seal, instead of the rejoining escapades" - and I think the key difference here is that Fandaniel wasn't concerned with the methods, just the result, to which his methods could have potentially prevented bringing back / restoring the mankind that they knew.

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The Watcher kinda explains that part: because neither the Watcher nor Hydaelyn were hurting Zodiark while he was imprisoned, he was safe there in his more vulnerable fractured state.

Fandaniel wanted him free while still incomplete because he wanted to use Zodiark as a battering ram and get him killed in the process.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Let's break it down a bit here.



For this one, Zodiark isn't whole. There are other shards out there that haven't been rejoined as we stopped the Ascians in their tracks. That is why he was severely weaker than he could have been. Was it a bit of a let down? Definitely, but it brought him(and the most annoying thing) to an end.



Meteion was an extreme empath. Every bit of emotion, from anyone, was felt by her. She loved Etherius, and it's people, enough that after witnessing, and feeling, the despair and grief of hundreds of dying worlds, she resolved that the end of existence was for the betterment of mankind. The fact that there were dozens(hundreds/thousands?) of them, meant that every single one, when they linked their consciousness, felt it and came to the same conclusion.




This one is more speculation, but it's due to the fact that if she did do anything other than what she did do, we wouldn't have had anything to go back to. It would potentially not have existed as per any time paradox that would happen from changing any major point in history. It at least allowed her to be able to prepare her champions in a way she saw fit to be able to at least attempt to stop Meteion.

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Congratulations! You broke the forum lol. It appears broken on my browser at least.

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

I won't let the point about the ancients lacking dynamis count, as one of their own, Hermes, did just fine in creating a dynamis being in Meteion, something which Venat, the former seat of Azem, and Emet-Selch should've easily been able to learn given their character backgrounds.

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That was an interesting point I thought. Hermes, even if he didn't realize it, did seem to be moved by emotion, ie dynamis. So it opens up the idea that Ancients may have been able to affect or manipulate it. I had a thought that maybe Azem could, too, after Venat mentioned how strong they were when they first fought, and this may have been what Azem was looking into instead of the primal solution.

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Originally Posted by Eriane_Elis

Congratulations! You broke the forum lol. It appears broken on my browser at least.

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Okay, so it's not just me. I was wondering if someone else was seeing the weird format of how it is showing up...wonder if it's because of how I broke down the list without removing the list tags...

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Originally Posted by Eriane_Elis

Congratulations! You broke the forum lol. It appears broken on my browser at least.

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Broken on mine, too. I applaud the talent necessary in breaking the forums that badly.

Dunno. A lot of these complaints I see about Zodiark getting offed in the first half seem a little misguided. He's just a loose thread after 5.3, and dropping him in as the first trial is a fantastic surprise. I can't imagine he'd be more interesting as a last boss, and having Fandaniel make good on his wish to kill himself and bring us all with him made their use of Zodiark apropos.

The naivety of Hermes, coupled with bird girl's findings made a fantastic surprise as well. Our ultimate enemy isn't something deep underground or an Other from the depths of space -- both of which were built up in the narrative -- it's "our" own creation (so is despair.) Hermes' half-flip of letting things play out and then wiping his own memory so he would be a defender against the apocalypse was pretty cool as well; they could've easily gone the boring route and just made him a cackling villain right then and there, but they let the passage of time drive him mad. He's actually a solid counterpoint to Emet, in that aspect.

Venat -- I am loathe to say time travel is something I would jump into without hesitation, but I'm willing to exchange that apprehension for what we get in Elpis. Some of my favorite interactions in the entire game are with her, and seeing the lyrics to Answers brought to life is worth the price of admission alone. For me, at least. Seeing the ancients going about their daily lives was also a blast, and the sidequests there are well worth playing through and paying attention.

Zenos? The mistake is they brought him back after Stormblood. I think him being a "bonus" fight at the end of the expansion is the best they could possibly do with him, and I don't think multiple 1v1s with him would've gone over well with a huge chunk of players. For those players, I think an option to abandon him at the end of the universe would've been a nice one to have-- but I also would've wanted an option to immediately accept him (in the vein of "oh heck yes, let's dunk on her and play together after") as soon as he appears in front of the Endsinger.