Really liking Sage but...

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I would really recommend not using any macros at all—but especially not to macro your heals. Macros do not queue like normal skills in this game, and there are inherent delays with them because they cannot queue with normal abilities. A delay in a heal caused by the way the macro system works is far more detrimental.

The only macros that are really recommended are mouse over macros for things like AST cards or SCH’s Fae Union, and a raise macro. Otherwise, they aren’t that recommended, and are likely to be more of a hindrance than a help.

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I actually tested having DPS buttons on the <tt> macro recently.

Over a 60 second period:
Macro: 25 Dosis casts.
No Macro: 26 Dosis casts.

Losing one Dosis GCD per minute is IMO an acceptable loss compared against the smoother gameplay offered by having the DPS buttons use the <tt> macro.

You could argue the macroless DPS rotation is objectively better because you get that extra GCD.
But I argue that I lose less DPS to use the macro because no matter what I'm targeting I'm always aiming a Dosis at the boss.

It's a personal thing. Some people will feel more comfortable with the incessant target switching.
So I'll keep suggesting that people should give the macro a shot (only on the dps, never on a heal) and see how it feels for them.
But I'll always maintain that it should be a natural function of healer dps spells.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I would really recommend not using any macros at all—but especially not to macro your heals. Macros do not queue like normal skills in this game, and there are inherent delays with them because they cannot queue with normal abilities. A delay in a heal caused by the way the macro system works is far more detrimental.

The only macros that are really recommended are mouse over macros for things like AST cards or SCH’s Fae Union, and a raise macro. Otherwise, they aren’t that recommended, and are likely to be more of a hindrance than a help.

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I actually tested having DPS buttons on the <tt> macro recently.

Over a 60 second period:
Macro: 25 Dosis casts.
No Macro: 26 Dosis casts.

Losing one Dosis GCD per minute is IMO an acceptable loss compared against the smoother gameplay offered by having the DPS buttons use the <tt> macro.

You could argue the macroless DPS rotation is objectively better because you get that extra GCD.
But I argue that I lose less DPS to use the macro because no matter what I'm targeting I'm always aiming a Dosis at the boss.

It's a personal thing. Some people will feel more comfortable with the incessant target switching.
So I'll keep suggesting that people should give the macro a shot (only on the dps, never on a heal) and see how it feels for them.
But I'll always maintain that it should be a natural function of healer dps spells.

Losing a GCD per minute isnt good. WHM already try not using Lillies because it loses a single GCD in potency every 90s. Really wish they'd already fix the macro qeue system.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

I actually tested having DPS buttons on the <tt> macro recently.

Over a 60 second period:
Macro: 25 Dosis casts.
No Macro: 26 Dosis casts.

Losing one Dosis GCD per minute is IMO an acceptable loss compared against the smoother gameplay offered by having the DPS buttons use the <tt> macro.

You could argue the macroless DPS rotation is objectively better because you get that extra GCD.
But I argue that I lose less DPS to use the macro because no matter what I'm targeting I'm always aiming a Dosis at the boss.

It's a personal thing. Some people will feel more comfortable with the incessant target switching.
So I'll keep suggesting that people should give the macro a shot (only on the dps, never on a heal) and see how it feels for them.
But I'll always maintain that it should be a natural function of healer dps spells.

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And I will argue that not using macro is the better way to play regardless of your “testing”. “1 GCD a minute” adds up over the course of a fight—and you aren’t accounting for other losses that are likely to occur due to movement. Or even due to uncontrollable things like lag and packet loss, which just exacerbate the issues surrounding macros and queuing.

I’m not one to advocate for purposely gimping oneself in any level of content. I don’t care if you’re a bean sprout or a veteran. I won’t recommend combat macros regardless because it’s an objectively subpar way to play. It’s a needless crutch that won’t help a person grow as a player. Even if they aren’t aspiring to be a raider.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

And I will argue that not using macro is the better way to play regardless of your “testing”. “1 GCD a minute” adds up over the course of a fight—and you aren’t accounting for other losses that are likely to occur due to movement. Or even due to uncontrollable things like lag and packet loss, which just exacerbate the issues surrounding macros and queuing.

I’m not one to advocate for purposely gimping oneself in any level of content. I don’t care if you’re a bean sprout or a veteran. I won’t recommend combat macros regardless because it’s an objectively subpar way to play. It’s a needless crutch that won’t help a person grow as a player. Even if they aren’t aspiring to be a raider.

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If you enjoy the gameplay of "Cast-retarget-Cast-retarget-Cast-retarget-Cast-retarget" for 10+ minutes straight, Go for it.
Speaking purely from a subjective standpoint, Being able to simeltaneously cast DPS at the boss and oGCD heals at my party members without needing to retarget every 2 seconds is simply better gameplay.

I have tried for years to "train" myself to not use the macro. And every single time i try it, i perform worse. On healing AND dps. I'm probably not alone in that.
No part of this game requires absolute perfection to clear. Not even Savage. Proof of that is in the Logs.
A loss rate of 1 GCD per minute over the course of a full 10 minute fight will only hold up a fight by a handful of seconds at most.

I fully understand the reasons why SQenix have a punishment on macros for combat usage. They do not want us to be able to automate rotations and achieve maximum performance.
Healers though, we're the only role in the game that requires switching targets constantly even when only 1 enemy is present.
As such, the macro command should be the default nature of the spells.
The game subjectively feels considerably better to play as a Healer using this macro.
Objectively, targetdummy DPS is higher when not using the macro.
Personally, Using the macro enables a better performance than not using the macro.

This is why i suggest to anyone who has any kind of issue with doing DPS while healing to try the macro. If they're struggling with the default systems, Mayhaps using it will help them too.
Not everyone is a pitch perfect player who can absolutely nail their GCD timings with total precision.
I know I'll never reach the lofty heights of a 99th percentile DPS healer, for a great many reasons. The macro isnt one of them.
I'll not sacrifice my sanity and smooth gameplay on the altar of gaining 3% more DPS.

The problem is more that I'm sitting there casting DPS spells and then the boss suddenly starts casting while I'm in the middle of or just started casting a DPS spell. Which I then need to use Eurkasia and a barrior spell after my DPS spell finishes and before the tank buster goes out. And it's impossible to remember EVERY fight in this game to know, "oh the boss is going to do a tank buster or AoE attack after 2 auto attacks or what not. But I don't main heal and don't use them once I get them to max level anyway so maybe my problem isn't anything to be concerned about heh.

I would also like Plegma to be a ranged spell and Icoras to work like En Avant. I'm not sure why it requires a target. Again especially for controller players.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Losing a GCD per minute isnt good. WHM already try not using Lillies because it loses a single GCD in potency every 90s. Really wish they'd already fix the macro qeue system.

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Losing a GCD in a minute is meaningless outside of Savage / Ultimate content which is where 90% of the playerbase is.

Especially a healer DPS GCD. They don't account for that much anyway.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Losing a GCD in a minute is meaningless outside of Savage / Ultimate content which is where 90% of the playerbase is.

Especially a healer DPS GCD. They don't account for that much anyway.

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I find it difficult to believe that you only lose 1 GCD per minute. There wasn’t any evidence of these test results provided by the person who put them forward, so hence my skepticism. As well as just with how macros in this game work in general.

Last I checked, you couldn’t program them to function with <wait.2.5> intervals, meaning you’re either having to do <wait.2> or <wait.3>; which will result in GCD clipping and delay. Each GCD clipped/delayed adds up in the amount of GCDs you lose.

If you do a base <wait.3>, then after 5 GCDs at a 2.5s recast, you’ve already lost 1 GCD. And that’s only after 15 seconds by the macro’s standard, AND at base GCD. So not accounting for any sort of spell speed you may have on your gear that causes your GCD to be even lower. Weaving oGCDs will clip and delay your next Dosis cast even more, since macros won’t queue. Assuming you have no oGCDs to weave, over the course of a minute at 2.5 GCD, you would get 24 Dosis III casts. If you are using the <wait.3> macro, then you only get 20, resulting in 4 lost Dosis III casts. After two minutes, 8 lost casts. Three minutes, 12 lost casts. It adds up; and it will only get worse any time you need to weave in an Addersgall ability or Lucid Dreaming, which you should be doing for mana upkeep.

Just because this isn’t Savage/Ultimate tier play doesn’t mean you should enable bad playstyles.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

I have tried for years to "train" myself to not use the macro. And every single time i try it, i perform worse. On healing AND dps. I'm probably not alone in that.
No part of this game requires absolute perfection to clear. Not even Savage. Proof of that is in the Logs.
A loss rate of 1 GCD per minute over the course of a full 10 minute fight will only hold up a fight by a handful of seconds at most.

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You are likely struggling to retrain yourself to not use macros because you’ve grown complacent using them. They’ve become a crutch you have started to rely on, and you don’t know how to function without them. There will always be learning curves when you start trying something new—such as not using them—but if you keep going back to your old style of playing, then you will never learn the new style.

I never said anything required perfection to clear. That doesn’t change my stance, though. If I get a sprout healer that asks me for advice, I’m not going to hand them a crutch to use. I’m going to advise that they learn how to toggle between tank, party members, and bosses/mobs versus using <tt> macros. There are some abilities I would recommend a <tt> macro for, such as perhaps Krasis and Exaltation; but I would never recommend macroing their GCD healing abilities to them.

I’m not a 99th percentile healer either, by the way. You don’t have to be to not use macros.

1 GCD lost per minute does sound about right to be fair. It's not as massive a loss as some might claim. That said it's still a loss worth considering. For a Sage over an 8 minute fight you're talking 2640 potency lost. It can also be worse in an actual raid fight where you're trying to weave multiple abilities or focus on mechanics and may be more likely to have your macro fail to fire. So often more like 3500 potency lost. That's not small.

If you have to use macros, I'd recommend mouseover for single target oGCD heals. While mouseover also comes issues, oGCD macros are less harmful. It allows you to target the boss the whole fight and is flexible while having almost no target switching. You can hit high orange in Savage or Ultimate even with mouseovers, but macroing your most frequently used GCD's would cause you to struggle to scrape purple.

I can understand macro'ing GCD's if you've really tested everything and suffer more loss without it. It might be the correct evaluation to make and you could still play at an average level with it. But I'd never freely recommend it to others. It's a last resort.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I find it difficult to believe that you only lose 1 GCD per minute. There wasn’t any evidence of these test results provided by the person who put them forward, so hence my skepticism. As well as just with how macros in this game work in general.

Last I checked, you couldn’t program them to function with <wait.2.5> intervals, meaning you’re either having to do <wait.2> or <wait.3>; which will result in GCD clipping and delay. Each GCD clipped/delayed adds up in the amount of GCDs you lose.

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I feel like you're misunderstanding the macro. Its right here:
/micon "Dosis"
/macroerror off
/ac "Dosis" <tt>

There is no wait command, all it's doing directing my spell at my targets target. AKA, The boss that my party member is targetting.
FFXIV is the only game i know of that punishes Healers for doing this, and FFXIV is not the only MMO i've ever healed and did DPS on.

The test you can do yourself. Grab yourself a parser (or screen record and count it with a stopwatch)
60 second period.
Spam Dosis via macro for the full 60 seconds.
Spam Dosis without macro for the full 60 seconds.
When i did this, 25 casts with macro, 26 without.

The only check it's doing is confirming that theres a viable target to cast Dosis at.
The only drawback to using it is the lack of queueing. Thats it.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I can understand macro'ing GCD's if you've really tested everything and suffer more loss without it. It might be the correct evaluation to make and you could still play at an average level with it. But I'd never freely recommend it to others. It's a last resort.

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What the heck do you mean by "fail to fire"? I've never experienced this. When i press my Dosis macro, i cast Dosis. When Dosis finishes casting and the GCD is rolling, i can drop my oGCDs on whoever needs them.
I do not enjoy having to switch targets between enemy/ally constantly. I have expressed this a number of times. Even told you all that i accept the slight reduction in DPS that using this macro entails. Not once have i claimed that it an objectively better method. I do not care that targetting the boss at all times is objectively better DPS.
I have only stated that i, personally, subjectively prefer to hold my target on friendlies and have my offensive casts redirected to my targets target. This is the only thing i want the Devs to do. Make the <tt> part of the macro the default nature of the spell.
Why do i want that? So i can use my damn UI the way I want to use it without being punched in the gut for it. And YOU can use YOUR UI the way YOU want and we get an equal result.

I only suggest that someone tries the macro if they find themselves struggling with the default. Perhaps for them, as it does for me, it will help make the experience better.
Understand now?