*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

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Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

it works both ways-too much aether drowns out dynamis and too much dynamis drowns out aether. the problem is meteion had 14 or 15 planets worth of dynamis.

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Yeah, the ancients would have almost certainly failed in Ultima Thule. Seems they have too much aether to interact with and manipulate the dynamis there, but not enough to personally fight and win an aether vs. dynamis sumo match at the edge of the Universe. Especially as their favoured form of magic, creation, does not share their immunity to dynamis's influence.

They went 10/10 for aether and put zero points in dynamis, and it backfired, not that they could have known of course, but it is what it is. We got like half the stat points but go for a more balanced build and end up winning the day.

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Originally Posted by Zoliru

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I always judge things based on actions, consequences and results, someone telling me something is "bad" never really was relevant.

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The consequence/result is the death of millions of innocent people/animals/beings, how can this be good? The end does not justify the means.

We are explicitly shown what the end result of the Ancient society would be in the third segment of the final dungeon, the society there is supposed to be the end result of what the Ancients had. A perfect world, with no meaning left, seeking an end to their own existance.
Even if the Ancients survived the final days, Venat was STILL in the right to "cut their wings" and proclaim that "mankind shall walk". It was the only solution, they have to suffer to live.

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Originally Posted by Zoliru

But you forget two major things.

Like someone else mentioned, Aether is more powerful, if used appropriately and creatively it could be of use against dynamis, even as a shield, after all Dynamis was useless against the ancients themselves.

More importantly, they had the power of literal creation, if it was on me, I would begin by creating more entelecheias with far fewer abilities(to be safe) just to start experimenting and understanding better how dynamis works slowly and what creations to create in order to take advantage of it without backfiring.

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It took them sacrificing half their population to essentially create something to help the shield existing on the planet already that was on the other side of the universe from Ultima Thule. Hate to see how many they'd have to sacrifice to create shields themselves to be able to last in Ultima Thule itself. They had an entelechy for only they know how long with the Elpis flower and it took an unknown amount of time for Hermes to create the Meteion before the memory wipe. Without the memory wipe of the time loop Hermes would have been the psycho nut he became and been largely useless and no one but him knew any remote way to create entelechies. Zodiark was the culmination of what they knew about Dynamis and how to stop it

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Yeah, the ancients would have almost certainly failed in Ultima Thule. Seems they have too much aether to interact with and manipulate the dynamis there, but not enough to personally fight and win an aether vs. dynamis sumo match at the edge of the Universe.

I picture it as sort of, lets say you get 10 points to spend. The Ancients went all in, 10 on aether, 0 on dynamis.
That point distribution wasn't going to work for the threat they were facing, so we all got chopped up and remade and now we've got a 3 in aether and maybe a 2 in dynamis. Yeah I know it's a little unfair we lost 5 points along the way but it was kind of a long and messy process to get us to this point :p , was still good enough to win in the end though.

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Just to clarify but what we are told ingame is not that Dynamis is an equal force to Aether, even with those said 10 planets, Meiteion still couldnt pierce through the celestial barrier and had to work slowly leading to only piercing the weaker parts of the barrier while gnawing on the rest, it sounds like Dynamis is extremely weak against Aether but with enough Dynamis and enough time, you can slowly chew threw a barrier of aether but it still wouldnt be able to beat a concentrated amount of aether unless the piece of aether just stands there doing nothing for years.

So the fact stands that Aether>>>>>>>Dynamis.

You are correct to say Ancients wouldnt be able to compete in Ultima Thule since we learned that Ethyris was especially strong in Aether while Ultimate thule is mostly devoid of it with Dynamis being the dominant form of power, but like I said again, you only need to be creative, what if a huge source of Aether was moved to Ultimate thula, in a very similar way to how we moved there, it isnt unlikely that the ancients could have figured out something similar, and since they were able to use aether in a far more reliable and effective way they would have been able to be a lot more deadly to meiteion.

Now the main task at hand would be tracking meiteion, you would need either somekind of spell or more likely a creation, obviously not more entelecheia but more concepts that might be able to detect and manipulate dynamis since the ancients couldnt.

Again, with the power of creation at hand and nigh infinite time, there arent any problems that cant be solved, but its a video game at the end of the day so they have to make the good guys win.

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Originally Posted by AlysanneVrannai

We are explicitly shown what the end result of the Ancient society would be in the third segment of the final dungeon, the society there is supposed to be the end result of what the Ancients had. A perfect world, with no meaning left, seeking an end to their own existance.
Even if the Ancients survived the final days, Venat was STILL in the right to "cut their wings" and proclaim that "mankind shall walk". It was the only solution, they have to suffer to live.

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Just a reminder that this is a video game and that story does not make for a meaningful argument about one's own existence by saying everyone is like X, this is a written story and you cant use it as actual lessons.

Especially since it is highly unlikely for an advanced society like that to still deal with existential issues when answers for the reason being even have such questions are internal, and once understood, the answers to the questions hermes kept asking become irrelevant, maybe a society of Hermes would end up like that, but not one full of Emets

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Originally Posted by Nothv13

Without the memory wipe of the time loop Hermes would have been the psycho nut he became and been largely useless and no one but him knew any remote way to create entelechies.

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Um nowhere is it said that only Hermes is able to create entelecheia, he was the only one INTERESTED in creating them hence he did, that doesnt mean others are incapable of doing the same, after all the power of creation is simply up to your imagination.

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Originally Posted by Zoliru

Just a reminder that this is a video game and that story does not make for a meaningful argument about one's own existence by saying everyone is like X, this is a written story and you cant use it as actual lessons.

Especially since it is highly unlikely for an advanced society like that to still deal with existential issues when answers for the reason being even have such questions are internal, and once understood, the answers to the questions hermes kept asking become irrelevant, maybe a society of Hermes would end up like that, but not one full of Emets

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I dont understand, what makes a written story incapable of teaching lessons?

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Originally Posted by Zoliru

Um nowhere is it said that only Hermes is able to create entelecheia, he was the only one INTERESTED in creating them hence he did, that doesnt mean others are incapable of doing the same, after all the power of creation is simply up to your imagination.

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The fact that the vast majority of Ancients didn't even know what Dynamis is. Even the Azems, who's entire point is travelling helping and learning new things knew virtually nothing about it outside of something exists. Power of creation is shown as much more complicated than just "your imagination". In fact it is shown to require extreme precision and understanding everything about the creation on a very deep level and it still not being fully understood as shown when creatures would do things and act it ways counter to how the designers believed they were designed. Not to mention, the stronger in Aether an ancient, then probably the less likelihood of being able to successfully make a dynamis using creature due to how aether drowns out the normal ambient dynamis of the planet.

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Originally Posted by Zoliru

Just a reminder that this is a video game and that story does not make for a meaningful argument about one's own existence by saying everyone is like X, this is a written story and you cant use it as actual lessons.

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This is just blatantly false. A most basic example directly countering this would be fables—short tales designed with the intent of teaching some sort of morality or life lesson. You absolutely can use writing to teach lessons—in any media, not just printed media. To say this makes it clear that you’ve never looked beyond the surface when it comes to a story. It’s very common for authors to push certain narratives and lessons in their writing if one knows where to look for them.

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Originally Posted by RicaRuin

The consequence/result is the death of millions of innocent people/animals/beings, how can this be good? The end does not justify the means.

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You have yet to tell why it wouldn’t be Genocide or why you would accept consequences on this scale.

(Unless you're the same guy who posted something like this on reddit a few weeks back and claimed that Genocide is okay because the Ancients were superior.)

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Originally Posted by RicaRuin

You have yet to tell why it wouldn’t be Genocide or why you would accept consequences on this scale.

(Unless you're the same guy who posted something like this on reddit a few weeks back and claimed that Genocide is okay because the Ancients were superior.)

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I agree with you with the Ascians' method being just not acceptable. Even Emet that you meet on Elpis, for all intents and purposes just like his fellow Ancients were much more powerful than the sundered ones, thought that the idea of them (his fellow members of the Convocation and others who are in the idea of summoning Zodiark) would sacrifice half of their civilization to save the star and then sacrifice the newly created ones to revive the ones who were sacrificed, balked at the idea of that ever happenning.