Let’s Talk about Toxikon.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

@HyoMinPark - We also don’t want to overbloat oGCDs either. We already have a ton of those tools as is and don’t want to overload ourselves. I’m ok with it being instant cast, but as people have said Toxicon needs a damage bump(like about 40 potency) to probably be worth the 900 MP you’re throwing at it post-82.

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Our oGCDs are all heals that will ultimately be scripted within any given fight. I don’t think having 1 of the 4 AOE abilities we have being oGCD will bog us down. It will break up the monotony of moments where you are spamming Dosis III and nothing more. I’m reminded constantly of healing E7S where I didn’t have to do any healing for the first 2 mins of the fight (my group had PLD/WAR so the busters were always inconsequential). If they have fights like that in ShB, I’d like an oGCD ability to weave to break up my regular spam. If it isn’t Toxicon, Phlegma is an alternative.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Our oGCDs are all heals that will ultimately be scripted within any given fight. I don’t think having 1 of the 4 AOE abilities we have being oGCD will bog us down. It will break up the monotony of moments where you are spamming Dosis III and nothing more. I’m reminded constantly of healing E7S where I didn’t have to do any healing for the first 2 mins of the fight (my group had PLD/WAR so the busters were always inconsequential). If they have fights like that in ShB, I’d like an oGCD ability to weave to break up my regular spam. If it isn’t Toxicon, Phlegma is an alternative.

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Being able to double weave our Toxicon and Phlegma with our dosis casts would make everything feel better. it would even make Kardia feel more impactful.

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Originally Posted by nelothi

I agree. Toxicon should have a potency above dosis but below phlegma.
I do think it is worth casting though, saying it isnt is a bit disingenuous — as it is right now, you will always have charges to cast toxicon as long as you are actively letting your shield break on the tank before refreshing it. So not casting it is an MP waste, as it basically replaces dosis 1 for 1 and doesnt cost mana.

one suggestion would be for the whole dps kit to have their GCDs adjusted so that you can double weave Toxicon and Phlegma into your GCD after a Dosis cast.
This would not only be more engaging for your dps rotation, but also provide a decent heal to your Kardia target.

I went over a bunch of suggestions in a thread i just made that included this.

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The worth of it is very much divided right now from what I can see amongst others playing the job. I see several that disagree with the worth because you have to dump 900 MP + 2 GCDs to get procs for it—so, in their opinion, fishing is a waste; and you use it if you have it, but it’s not a huge deal if you don’t. It isn’t worth the chase to try and optimize damage output or anything like that. Increasing potency could change that. At the very least, I think it shouldn’t be the same as Dosis.

It would be nice to have Toxicon worth chasing. Could maybe incentivize GCD shielding more, rather than the first recourse always being “exhaust oGCDs, and then resort to GCD”. Outside of shielding for busters.

And I am all for a DPS weave. Be it Toxicon or Phlegma. I’ve seen some disagree with making them oGCD, but I think it will break up a bit of the single-target nuke spam on bosses.

In dungeons and AOE situations, I have very little complaints about Toxicon. But when I consider single-target is where I wish it was just a little bit better in some regard.

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Originally Posted by nelothi

Being able to double weave our Toxicon and Phlegma with our dosis casts would make everything feel better. it would even make Kardia feel more impactful.

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I’d personally like to see more on the Kardion mechanic. The idea of healing via damage has always intrigued me, and I really want to see a healer that can do more of that. Maybe in the future, SGE will get an expansion on that aspect. An AOE version on a cooldown for raid wides could be interesting.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

I’ve been throwing it pre-pull as well, and I don’t mind that in a dungeon setting. In a raid setting though, we’d be the first to react to on-demand TBs. In general, I’m still of the mind Addersgall = Addersting so that our shield isn’t a requisite bit more of a reactive planning tool to deal with TBs because the Shield potency is pretty good as weak as people think it is.

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You wouldn't be the first one to react to a TB and most importantly you wouldn't use Eukrasian Diagnosis for it.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The worth of it is very much divided right now from what I can see amongst others playing the job. I see several that disagree with the worth because you have to dump 900 MP + 2 GCDs to get procs for it—so, in their opinion, fishing is a waste; and you use it if you have it, but it’s not a huge deal if you don’t. It isn’t worth the chase to try and optimize damage output or anything like that. Increasing potency could change that. At the very least, I think it shouldn’t be the same as Dosis.

It would be nice to have Toxicon worth chasing. Could maybe incentivize GCD shielding more, rather than the first recourse always being “exhaust oGCDs, and then resort to GCD”. Outside of shielding for busters.

And I am all for a DPS weave. Be it Toxicon or Phlegma. I’ve seen some disagree with making them oGCD, but I think it will break up a bit of the single-target nuke spam on bosses.

In dungeons and AOE situations, I have very little complaints about Toxicon. But when I consider single-target is where I wish it was just a little bit better in some regard.

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Am i wrong in thinking that you should basically always be looking to refresh your Eukrasian Diagnosis shield after it breaks on the tank?
Im new to healing in FFXIV, but so far i see no reason to not refresh the shield after it breaks every time, so the MP cost of Toxicon would be a moot point — if youre like me and are always refreshing it, that is.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’d personally like to see more on the Kardion mechanic. The idea of healing via damage has always intrigued me, and I really want to see a healer that can do more of that. Maybe in the future, SGE will get an expansion on that aspect. An AOE version on a cooldown for raid wides could be interesting.

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It just feels odd to me that Kardia is a HUGE part of Sages identity, and its very unimpactful. I havent got to the first trial back, so im just speculating here... But I dont see Kardia being anything special in actual boss encounters.

In my other thread I made the suggestion that Enhanced Kerachole should be changed to put Kardia on your whole party for 15 seconds, rather than just be a HoT effect. This would make Kardia actually... a big thing. But thats not what this thread is about so leme get off that topic.

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Originally Posted by nelothi

Am i wrong in thinking that you should basically always be looking to refresh your Eukrasian Diagnosis shield after it breaks on the tank?
Im new to healing in FFXIV, but so far i see no reason to not refresh the shield after it breaks every time, so the MP cost of Toxicon would be a moot point — if youre like me and are always refreshing it, that is.

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In this game, no, you would not be refreshing Eukrasian Diagnosis after each break. Healers in this game are very heavily focused on oGCD healing > GCD healing. Aside from the fact that having 100% uptime for your shield on the MT is a poor usage of mana and your GCD, it would also negate your Kardion effect. Which is Sage’s main gimmick. Shields are always scripted in encounters for busters or raidwides. If they aren’t needed, they’re dropped in favor of other GCD abilities (in our case, Dosis III/Phlegma).

For dungeons, if you are constantly spamming Eukrasian Diagnosis on a tank holding 10 mobs, your shield breaks before you GCD even has a chance to reset. You will bottom out quickly relying on keeping it up 100% of the time. It’s fine for pre-pull or as the tank is running—or if you need that split second to get an Addersgall effect for a burst heal—but you would never want to spam it. It would also prevent you from dealing damage and healing passively with Kardia—which, again, negates Sage’s gimmick. Plus, with a good tank, you won’t have to heal them hardly as much (depending on the dungeon, of course. Some hit harder than others.)

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It just feels odd to me that Kardia is a HUGE part of Sages identity, and its very unimpactful. I havent got to the first trial back, so im just speculating here... But I dont see Kardia being anything special in actual boss encounters.

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Kardia is a regen. It’s effectively the equivalent of a SCH’s fairy Embrace. While it won’t be effective against things like tankbusters, HoTs have always been incredibly strong in this game. Having a passive HoT on the main tank of an encounter means you are casting less Diagnoses and using less of your other resources in the long run (and your cohealer as well—since healing is always a collaborative effort). Which is ideal/optimized play for healers in this game. I don’t see the stat squish changing that all that much.

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In my other thread I made the suggestion that Enhanced Kerachole should be changed to put Kardia on your whole party for 15 seconds, rather than just be a HoT effect. This would make Kardia actually... a big thing. But thats not what this thread is about so leme get off that topic.

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That would essentially be the same as what Kerachole already is. But the idea behind Kerachole (and shield healers in general) is that you mitigate first, and then heal. We’re meant to lessen the incoming damage versus raw healing through it. Think of us as the more “proactive” healers, versus WHM/AST, who are “reactive” (though they also have proactive elements to them at times). We know damage is coming, so we prep necessary shields/mitigation when needed. Versus “AOE goes out > heal”. Granted, this is not strictly black and white—but this is the only way I can think of how to explain it. I apologize if it doesn’t make a lot of sense.

I don’t really see a reason to change Kreachole at all—but I have played AST and SCH, and with it being the equivalent to their Collective Unconscious and Sacred Soil respectively, I recognize just how powerful of an ability it already is in its current form.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’d personally like to see more on the Kardion mechanic. The idea of healing via damage has always intrigued me, and I really want to see a healer that can do more of that. Maybe in the future, SGE will get an expansion on that aspect. An AOE version on a cooldown for raid wides could be interesting.

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I also think Kardion can be improved upon. There recently was a thread put up asking about that, but to reiterate my thought here is that current Kardion is enough for SGE to get by if you’re playing at a high level. In Trials and Raids, SGE especially needs fight knowledge and timing to effectively use its kit - moreso than SCH due to the abilities and utility we have built in.

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Originally Posted by rewd

You wouldn't be the first one to react to a TB and most importantly you wouldn't use Eukrasian Diagnosis for it.

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You wouldn’t use Haima because that 150 pot Shield isn’t good enough if we’re comparing something like E12S TBs. It might save a few autos, but it takes a moment to refresh itself. If you’re thinking Taurachole, that’s be for mitigation if your tank needs the extra 10%. Zoe + Eukrasian Diagnosis(especially a crit) gives more than enough value for TBs provided the MT is using their CDs. Otherwise, it wouldn’t hold up.

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Originally Posted by rewd

You wouldn't be the first one to react to a TB and most importantly you wouldn't use Eukrasian Diagnosis for it.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

You wouldn’t use Haima because that 150 pot Shield isn’t good enough if we’re comparing something like E12S TBs. It might save a few autos, but it takes a moment to refresh itself. If you’re thinking Taurachole, that’s be for mitigation if your tank needs the extra 10%. Zoe + Eukrasian Diagnosis(especially a crit) gives more than enough value for TBs provided the MT is using their CDs. Otherwise, it wouldn’t hold up.

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Ultimately for busters, the resources from your tanks, DPS, and cohealer will determine what you use for a buster. Trying to argue about if you use Eukrasian Diagnosis or not is a difficult argument to have without the full and proper context.

If your tank is immunitying, then absolutely you would not use it (or anything at all if you have a PLD—GNB/DRK would likely rely on Bene/Macrokosmos because SCH/SGE wants to cry when facing those, especially LD; my cohealer and I have already told both of our tanks that our answer to LD on SCH/SGE is Swiftcast-Raise lol). If they aren’t, then you will be consulting with your cohealer about what they have before looking at your kit. You would likely want to consult with some select DPS about what they might have available, since that could also affect what you use.

But, if the trend of healers continues, a GCD shield will likely be your last answer for a Buster, and only an option if you have nothing else to throw on the tank.