Scathe

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Originally Posted by Kahnom

Potency is not the problem.
The problem is when using it in AF phase, it will screw your MP pool and result in less fire 4.
If anything, they should make Scathe costs no mp and has cooldown on its own instead, maybe make it 2 charges.

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Part of the reason you still wouldn't want to rely on it once you get to optimizing your damage on the job. Using Scathe will cost a Fire IV and be a low potency hit, but will keep AF/UI from dropping so you don't lose your rotation or Polyglot timer. Have to determine which price is steeper: dropping AF/UI or using Scathe?

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Originally Posted by Pyitoechito

Part of the reason you still wouldn't want to rely on it once you get to optimizing your damage on the job. Using Scathe will cost a Fire IV and be a low potency hit, but will keep AF/UI from dropping so you don't lose your rotation or Polyglot timer. Have to determine which price is steeper: dropping AF/UI or using Scathe?

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I know that, Last time I used Scathe was in stormblood, I believe.
Even they remove this ability in END, it won't effect me one bit.

I think it'd be good if they buffed Scathe a bit to make it more useful as an emergency filler or compromise spell, so keeping its MP cost and damage but making it refresh Astral/Umbral (or just add a few seconds) would fit well. That way if you're in a bad spot you can weigh whether it's better to maintain your place in your current cycle or to just ripcord out with Transpose.

I'd raise the potency of Scathe to match Ruin 2 as it is now on Scholar, but not refresh the Astral Timer. It doesn't benefit from Astral Fire but if you absolutely have to move and keep DPS, it'd at least be tolerable. Or make it a new Drain spell. I miss Drain.

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Originally Posted by Leidolf

I'd raise the potency of Scathe to match Ruin 2 as it is now on Scholar, but not refresh the Astral Timer. It doesn't benefit from Astral Fire but if you absolutely have to move and keep DPS, it'd at least be tolerable. Or make it a new Drain spell. I miss Drain.

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And this is a big part of the reason why Scathe is awful. To fully put scathe into perspective, it could be 400 potency (before eno/maim and mend) and it would still be a massive potency loss. And at that point, it would approach parity with Scholar. Scholar is -90 potency to ruin 2. Since Scathe competes with fire 4, not fire 1/paradox, putting it at 400 potency would make it the equivalent to losing about 82 potency compared to fire 4. (540 / 2.8 * 2.5 = 482 potency, which would be our baseline for comparing a 2.5s GCD to what it's costing you.) So slightly more favorable than SCH's loss of potency. This would still make it the single most expensive loss that wasn't casting a second fire 1, but if you're comparing the potency to another class, you're already on the wrong footing for trying to balance it.

The problem with 400 is that BLM in EW will average about 167 pps, and at 400 for scathe, it's at 160. You could almost approach parity with the full rotation by just chain-casting scathe, which would be an interesting option but would still require maintaining AF/UI for enochian, but you'd have to keep it roughly in this ballpark or you're just not going to do enough damage to justify it even as panic movement.

And this is all while trying to consider Scathe's current MP cost and how it fits in with AF/UI timers, which is another reason why I want AF/UI timers gone, but that's secondary in this discussion because the problem is, even making Scathe 300 potency per GCD would still be nowhere near enough to make it worthwhile, and you're asking for a mere 200 potency to make it equivalent to Scholar, while also doing nothing for the AF/UI timers.

At that point, provided I'm not dropping AF/UI, it's better to flat out do nothing and try to recover the standard rotation than it is to use scathe, which is the entire reason people don't use scathe to begin with. Straight up make an Aetherial Manipulation macro, hard clip the GCD to get where you need to go in 5-700ms, and go right back to casting would be more favorable than casting a scathe that's not at least 300 potency.

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Originally Posted by Leidolf

I'd raise the potency of Scathe to match Ruin 2 as it is now on Scholar, but not refresh the Astral Timer. It doesn't benefit from Astral Fire but if you absolutely have to move and keep DPS, it'd at least be tolerable. Or make it a new Drain spell. I miss Drain.

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Ooh I love this, actually. If a trait upgraded Scathe to absorb HP it would at least make for a nice soloing tool.

Honestly what they should do with Scathe is Unlock the enochian timer at a lower level and make scathe a low level version of xeno

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

Honestly what they should do with Scathe is Unlock the enochian timer at a lower level and make scathe a low level version of xeno

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If we're going this route, can we seriously just fix the bait-and-switch of the class and give the fire 4 rotation from a lower level? Nothing sucks harder than leveling a class, experiencing 59 levels of something you love, and then hitting level 60 and realizing the class you leveled is not at all like the class actually is. You could actually do it semi-easily.

Make fire 1 and blizzard 1 operate like the PVP versions of the skill. At 35, blizzard 3 and fire 3 become your UH generator and high-burst long(ish) cast time MP dump. At 60, upgrade blizzard 1 into blizzard 3, blizzard 3 into blizzard 4 (remove blizzard 1 outright at this point). Replace fire 1 with fire 3, fire 3 with fire 4, the rotation returns to normal (Also, likewise, Fire 1 is removed at this point).

Benefits: Fewer buttons on the bar, fixes the bait and switch by applying it at a sufficiently lower level, makes the class feel like it's leveling up by replacing older abilities with newer ones as you level.

Drawbacks: Would need a potency rebalance, 2 buttons would be removed where 1 is important to the non-EW rotation, what happens with firestarter?

If we go the route of making Scathe a low level Xeno, and fix the bait and switch in a way that screws with firestarter, we can also consider other things: The class 'needs' more movement. What if there was a trait at level 54 named: "Sharpcast" that used the paradox mechanic to makes spending a paradox a guaranteed instant? That is, we already have the core 60+ rotation solidified from 35 at this point, so the first fire 1 (54) or fire 3 (60+) or Paradox (90+) was instant cast. We salvage the mobility Sharpcast provides and move the caster slightly more towards mobile, but keep the core Fire 4/blizzard 4 rotation slow. Then we just need to do something to clean up thunder 3. Maybe make it a guaranteed proc after 6 tics, or just making the sharpcast trait flat out increase the proc rate to, say, 13% (~68%chance to proc) or 15% (~75%)

Combine this with removing AF/UI timers to make learning a very difficult rotation at lower levels easier to understand, combine Transpose and Umbral Soul into a shared button, and we've made a significant dent in the classes bloat while slightly dropping the skill ceiling (Sharpcast does provide some challenge to master without being critical to master), a second slight drop from making an easy always available movement skill in a redesigned sharpcast (The devs want more mobile content anyways), but still keep the core rotation, and drop the skill floor out from under the class.

All while providing the core level 90 rotation as low as level 35, just like how Summoner is going to be in EW, just like RDM is, while keeping as much of the identity of the class as possible.

And, because of all the refining done to the rotation, and having at least 5 buttons removed (Scathe, upgrades, Sharpcast, trait, Blizzard 1/fire 1, directly upgraded/replaced, Transpose/Umbral Soul) there's a ton of room to try something truly unique for the first time since fire 4 was added. Plus, with 2 guaranteed instant casts per rotation (You get the paradox in both directions), we can add some more oGCDs with easier-to-fit timing. I guess that's also a slight skill ceiling drop, but this class already has an astronomical skill ceiling, it can afford to lose some if it means actually giving the rotation a pass.

Or you could just implement Scathe as a charge action with 2 stacks and a 30s cooldown and have Xenoglossy replace it if you have Polyglot available. Not everything needs a complete overhaul to help ‘fit’ one ability. ShB BLM’s levelling curve does a much better job establishing the transition from casino mage to its current iteration by using those umbral hearts in B4 and Enochian to get you used to their presence. Compared to HW BLM where not only was Fire IV jarring but the Enochian timer itself was a major roadblock that wasn’t even worth engaging with during the levelling process thanks to its diminishing returns. If I were to alter the rotation, I’d probably use AF Paradox and Manafont to add additional Umbral Hearts into the AF rotation, thereby extending it even further (probably by making you use a heart on Paradox itself to gain three more while Manafont just gives two outright).

No, it really doesn't Grimoire. The class pre 60 and post 60 is night and day different. And if we are fixing one ability, we may as well look at everything that can be improved. Even leveling down below 60 can be pretty jarring if you just got used to the rotation at another level, and I imagine once they new AoE rotation comes in and is actually refined to the point where you merely add things like Flare on as you go up in level, it will, too, be even more jarring when the ST rotation doesn't do that. I already still have to remember 3 or 4 separate burst openers and it's not a fun experience.