Did we reverse Emet's tempering at the end?

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

It's stated that the cure for tempering won't work on someone whose aether is so unbalanced that it's caused physical mutations.

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I remember the specific wording being that those who are "too far gone" cannot be cured by our method of anti-tempering, and that one sign of being "too far gone" is physical mutations. Which leaves open the possibility of people who don't show any physical mutations (yet), but are still considered "too far gone" based on some unknown criteria.

I interpret that line to be a Doylistic excuse (in an understandable way) to explain why some people might not be curable for Plot Reasons, just in case the narrative needs someone like that while pre-empting us from going "but what about the cure we discovered".

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

I interpret that line to be a Doylistic excuse (in an understandable way) to explain why some people might not be curable for Plot Reasons, just in case the narrative needs someone like that while pre-empting us from going "but what about the cure we discovered".

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Yeah, it's ultimately this, and it's why we'll never see this really fully explored or challenged. It's how they keep tempering being a problem in a world where we can cure it in some way. Which is great, because honestly I found tempering interesting as something that couldn't be undone so easily.

I doubt what we did cured his tempering. If a Blade of Light is all that was needed, wouldn't Nabriales and Igeyorhm likewise have changed at the very end instead of protesting their fate? Granted those Blades weren't of the same strength but then Nabriales and Igeyorhm were only shards, not unsundered.

Passage into the Lifestream after death would cure tempering, though, since the soul gets immersed in pure aether. If it didn't, there would be no need for the Ascians to use the dark crystals to avoid entry into the Lifestream when their bodies die. Their compatriots, mainly Emet-Selch, would be able to pluck them right back out intact. Considering it's highly unlikely only the Convocation was tempered by Zodiark after his summoning, there should be open Zodiark worship from all the reborn tempered souls. Gaia would have been a very different person if she had been reborn tempered and wouldn't have struggled against the dark other calling out to her.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Him accepting his loss and smiling at us when we agree to remember them seems like it indicates he's no longer being compelled to aide Zodiark's return. He's accepted the plan has fallen through and its not happening. I think that's suggestive that he's no longer tempered.

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I don't think that has anything to do with the state of his tempering. He did tell us at one point that Ascians are still capable of normal emotions.

Far more likely the smile was to acknowledge a rediscovered old friend who would remember him after he's gone.

They are so good with layered stories and keeping things open-ended that I think one of the interpretations of "shadowbringer" is that we brought shadow to the ascians.

I think we de-ascianed him and brought him a shadow, a legacy, and maybe untempered him at the same time. I feel like there are multiple layers of meaning behind their choice of name kind of like there were with Heavensward. I have seen that Ascians not having shadows is very important to the writers.

I saw the same things the people on here that always post saw, and I have a hard time thinking that they wrote this character without knowing how "popular" he would become. That people might think they are bringing him back from the dead against their will and forcing him on people is bizarre to me.

I don't know what the big division is between the fandom/creative writing group of people and the lorekeepers group but this character seems to polarize the two groups. It is very interesting to me as someone who started playing the game this year. Maybe it is the battle between storytelling vs lore and exists in multiple fandom communities--I honestly have no idea but I feel like this character and whether we untempered him is like one of the community-defining debates.

I don't really think the writers intended the abject disgust/dislike for this character after the depth they went into in Shadowbringers but they did leave stuff open-ended about the relationship we might have had with this character and how our previous incarnation isn't necessarily the same person we are now.

Whether you love him or not, it is really hard to not appreciate a character like this who is competing with the Azim Steppe lady in a contest of who can dump the most lore on us.

There's a post now about being sad for Emet-Selch's death--I was really sad, too. I think the twins' abruptness after his death and everyone's general attitude helped alienate us a little bit from the scions. And then 5.3 happened. The guy delivered us a love poem for gods' sake.

I'm still not really sure any of them know we have a connection to these people or hold a seat on their council. I feel like our ascian symbol is going to be like the archon symbol -- we are going to have to get the band back together in some way and our allegiance to the scions will be challenged. I think it already is, but I have been naturally a Hydaelyn questioner this whole time because the first scene of the game turned me off of it ("ugh, new age crystal worship..." then it turned out all the cool girls were mineralogists or miners and I was like, okay, that is more like it :D ).

(ctd)
It is really cool how people can see the same things and be so convinced their view is the right one. I think how we perceive this new girl will show us a lot of how far we've come in getting away from being tempered. I think we were tempered. I know it's not a viewpoint a lot of people here have, but I think that's the beauty of the storytelling. They could just straight-out go that route and it would make sense, like someone who is brought up in a religious family and has to come to terms with their past (not that either "side" necessarily is correct).

I am posting this as my thoughts and not necessarily anything canon or communally accepted. I am a new person who loves the story and the worldbuilding. I'm replaying through ShB now. I have never played a Final Fantasy game before this. It is important that more than 3 people post here with their ideas because it might impact the direction of the storytelling. And we need more characters like this who are divisive.

ETA: Would also be interested to see if there is the same divide in other language forums.

Yoshida (and Y'shtola's dialog after the fight) does imply that Emet is the one that fixed WoL's aetherial imbalance by counteracting all the Lightwarden's Light, so it's not unreasonable to think that the same happened in reverse. However I do think that when we consider his actions before the trial, the question of his tempering and what effect that actually had on him isn't so easily answered.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Yoshida (and Y'shtola's dialog after the fight) does imply that Emet is the one that fixed WoL's aetherial imbalance by counteracting all the Lightwarden's Light, so it's not unreasonable to think that the same happened in reverse. However I do think that when we consider his actions before the trial, the question of his tempering and what effect that actually had on him isn't so easily answered.

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It's actually all but said verbatim that the PC burned off the Lightwardens' corruption by making a Blade of Light to strike down Emet-Selch, not the result of anything he did.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

It's actually all but said verbatim that the PC burned off the Lightwardens' corruption by making a Blade of Light to strike down Emet-Selch, not the result of anything he did.

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Yoshida's quote on the subject.

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But, I would like to bring your attention to Y'shtola's lines after clearing the Hades trial. She mentioned how tattered the WoL's aether was from the rampaging Light that it was as though, the Darkness had completely eliminated it all. Hades is a 'true-human', who fought with his all against the 'one who wants to save the world', clashing all of his Darkness against them. In opposition, the WoL fought back with all the strength of the Light, vanquishing large amounts of it in the process. This was also conveyed in Hades' lines during the trial, and as well as after clearing it, in the cutscene where Light and Dark clashed at each other. As a result, perhaps the Light and Dark residing inside of WoL had reached an equilibrium? Meaning Emet-Selch had reached a certain conclusion..... So, I'd like you to take another look at those scenes, and perhaps you may reach a different interpretation. But of course, I can't quite say that this is THE answer.

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It seems to me that WoL's aether reaching equilibrium wasn't purely a result of using it up in the battle, but rather Emet-Selch's doing as well, most likely intentionally. After all, even if WoL were to expend all the excess Light, that wouldn't really do anything to fix how badly your aether had been umbrally attuned - The innate corruption would still persist. The only thing that could counteract that and restore WoL to normality would be a similarly massive influx of Dark, astral aether. Y'shtola says as much in the cutscene after the battle, that Hades was the "dark to your light."

Indeed. Also the way Ryne had phrased it was addressing the fact that what had happened had gone beyond correcting the overflow of light in the MC, and had repaired the tears in the soul which was breaking apart under the weight of the aether, i.e. a separate thing. So insofar as the balance of energy is concerned, Yoshida's answer makes sense to me.

Doesn't Emet basically say himself that his tempering is cured?

"Now my charms are all o'erthrown,
And what strength I have's mine own"

To me, that says the charms (or spell, or geas) that were on him are overthrown, ie. gone. And his remaining power is his to do with as he sees fit. He is no longer compelled to do the will of Zodiark.

I could be wrong, but it seems pretty clear to me.