A Dark Thought on Amaurot

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Their whole scheme seems rather...flawed the more I think about it, and hinging more on possibilities then things they actually confirmed to be doable.

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Part of the problem here is that, by Emet-Selch's own admission, the Unsundered were all tempered by Zodiark. They're compelled to follow his purpose, to ensure the order of the star. And that means they're compelled to keep trying to restore it to its pre-Sundering state, no matter how long it takes, or if it's even possible. I would've liked to see someone bring up the question of how they planned to rejoin the Thirteenth, but it never came up.

We've also had multiple patches showing that Tempering comes in different degrees of severity and does not necessarily mean that the individual who happens to be Tempered is incapable of their own thoughts, actions and reasoning. In fact, that has been a pretty major plot point in multiple recent patches.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

It's neither clear nor cut; the idea that a malevolent extraterrestrial entity is responsible for the Final Days is just headcanon, no more confirmed to be true than the idea that the Final Days were the planet itself punishing the Ancients for their hubris. We don't know if it's one or the other, or something else entirely.

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We can use context clues tbh. We know some entity destroyed Omega’s planet(an extra terrestrial one),we know Ultima, an extra terrestrial, had the ability to “unfurl the laws of creation.” We know whatever the sound was, was able to specifically target the ancients’ one weakness, which was their creation magick(laws of creation hm?), and well, we know it’s a trope SE has used time and time again. It’s not confirmed as of yet no but that wasn’t my point, my point was there’s many people who seem to headcanon that the ancients caused their own demise which based on the info we know, makes very little sense unless they decide to retcon shb info.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

We've also had multiple patches showing that Tempering comes in different degrees of severity and does not necessarily mean that the individual who happens to be Tempered is incapable of their own thoughts, actions and reasoning. In fact, that has been a pretty major plot point in multiple recent patches.

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The only tempered shown to not follow their primal's goals were Ga Bu and Tiamat. Ga Bu was tempered by a version of Titan that was blind with grief and rage, and combined with the trauma of finding his dead parents, his mind snapped, so he wasn't really doing anything. Tiamat freely admits that she's not immune to Bahamut's influence (which begs the question of why Fandaniel didn't swing by Azys Lla with Lunar Bahamut, but he's also a complete nutter), which is why you have to cure her tempering before she'll give her aid.

We've also had cases stretching back to ARR where tempered thralls could act like normal people and blend in while still following their goals. Leviathan's pirates had an extensive crystal-smuggling operation going, even going far enough afield to try to blame it on the amaal'ja. Some of the Ala Mhigan guards in 4.1 went unsuspected as they hid crystals around the throne room right up until Lakshmi was summoned. I'm sure there were more, but I'm half asleep and not braining so well right now.

Yes, not all tempered are mindless fanatics or blinded worshipers, but they're still bound to their primal's will and goals.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Part of the problem here is that, by Emet-Selch's own admission, the Unsundered were all tempered by Zodiark. They're compelled to follow his purpose, to ensure the order of the star. And that means they're compelled to keep trying to restore it to its pre-Sundering state, no matter how long it takes, or if it's even possible. I would've liked to see someone bring up the question of how they planned to rejoin the Thirteenth, but it never came up.

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As far as Tempering goes, it varies primal to primal. Iirc, one of the most prominent examples of differences is showcased with Ramuh and the Sylphs. The Sylphs not tempered by the summoning itself asked to straight up be tempered, and Ramuh was like, "Well, if you insist, I suppose. Oh, but don't got bringing me a feast or anything. I only want to eat just enough aether to maintain my beard."

Hades said he was Tempered, but he didn't expound on at what intensity.

As far as returning the Source to its original state... on an aetherial level I think it can be. On the physical one... Mmm... not sure. Just one calamity rearranged its physical face an uncovered things once thought lost for thousands of years that were also buried by calamities. All of the works built over time piling up... I think it'd still be different.

As far as Rejoining the 13th goes... I believe most of its aether is tied up in the Voidsent. Once the other shards had all been Rejoined, the Source would be the only place they could go to get a snack. I think it would be just a matter of opening the door for them to come along, and then destroying them, letting their aether wash over the Source through its physical form. Kinda like busting Primal-likes in the Eden line.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Ultimately we don't know what caused the Final Days, and that's one of the big mysteries we need to unravel in Endwalker.

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I certainly didn't formulate my idea fully nor write it out as well as I would have liked.

What I was trying to drive at was that the Amaurotines may have rejected souls for so long in their society that it caused something like an Exdeath situation but in the Lifestream. Instead of a tortured tree twisting to be malevolent via the souls of the war dead, it's the planet via souls not allowed to inhabit the bodies that the planet wants them to inhabit.

One thing that strikes me as odd is that while Hades showed us a harmonious society, harmonious until Team Hydaelyn, it definitely seems they were only that way within the confines of that society. The life outside of it on the planet was something they viewed as beneath them, on average, proclaiming themselves masters over everything.

But we get that nice admittance in, "Through His Eyes" that they didn't understand the Lifestream, though they could view it and analyze it and even draw power from it.

The closest comparison I can draw is think of the Cetra from FFVII, but rather than living as one and being actually able to commune with the planet they were only so deeply tied to each other. They also built cities instead of living as nomads, building towers to themselves.

The idea that they expelled particular souls or people from their society also relates them to the Zilart from FFXI, who expelled all those who were afflicted with the Emptiness, being incapable of telepathy, "Whisper of the Soul" because of it. Those people were called the Kuluu. The Kuluu found the slumbering elemental gods in the wilds, and developed summoning magic in order to survive. The Zilart then waged a war of subjugation against them, which ended in the Kuluu stopping the Zilart from opening the Gates of Paradise causing an event known as, "The Meltdown." It destroyed Zilartian society almost completely, while mutating many of the surviving Kuluu into Tonberries, but it did spare the planet and the lives upon it.

Reaching tangent territory. Course, the premise of the thread is a bit of one, anyway. I just wanted to get out all the ideas and parallels that I see before they are matchsticks dashed against the rocks come Endwalkers.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

We can use context clues tbh. We know some entity destroyed Omega’s planet(an extra terrestrial one),we know Ultima, an extra terrestrial, had the ability to “unfurl the laws of creation.” We know whatever the sound was, was able to specifically target the ancients’ one weakness, which was their creation magick(laws of creation hm?), and well, we know it’s a trope SE has used time and time again. It’s not confirmed as of yet no but that wasn’t my point, my point was there’s many people who seem to headcanon that the ancients caused their own demise which based on the info we know, makes very little sense unless they decide to retcon shb info.

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The presence of extraterrestrials, some of them malevolent, does not mean whatever caused the sound was extraterrestrial. Further while the sound did cause the Ancients' creation magicks to go haywire, it affected other areas of the world before reaching Amaurot - it was just particularly effective against them due to said creation magicks and their emotional repression meaning they weren't accustomed to (or by and large capable of) facing their fears.

"It's a popular trope SE has used time and again" doesn't mean that's the case here, and your assertion was that it was "pretty clear and cut" it is. (It had nothing to do with other people presenting their headcanon ideas as truth.)

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Yes, not all tempered are mindless fanatics or blinded worshipers, but they're still bound to their primal's will and goals.

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During one lesson in the Crystal Tower Emet-Selch tells us, flat-out and to our faces, that he and the other Ascians now exist only to bring about the rule of Dark and Zodiark's supremacy. They may have personal reasons for doing so, but that doesn't mean they aren't compelled - overtly or covertly - by Zodiark to act in his interests.

I always suspected the rebirth-cycle itself that Ascians are capable of was a creation of theirs.

That is, I believe that while the Ancients were immensely powerful with magic, they were ultimately mortal.

Until at some point, they were able to create/develop/evolve a means to allow their specific Aether to remain intact and be reborn. This creates a problem, as they do indeed have children...with more and more children, more and more souls and more and more aether being recycled into new Ancients.

This would undoubtedly upset the natural order of things, with less and less aether being available for other forms of life...

...unless all this aether is coming from Lavos ;)

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The presence of extraterrestrials, some of them malevolent, does not mean whatever caused the sound was extraterrestrial. Further while the sound did cause the Ancients' creation magicks to go haywire, it affected other areas of the world before reaching Amaurot - it was just particularly effective against them due to said creation magicks and their emotional repression meaning they weren't accustomed to (or by and large capable of) facing their fears.

"It's a popular trope SE has used time and again" doesn't mean that's the case here, and your assertion was that it was "pretty clear and cut" it is. (It had nothing to do with other people presenting their headcanon ideas as truth.)

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You seemed to have just ignored my specific example i used so…just nevermind if you aren’t gonna read lol.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

You seemed to have just ignored my specific example i used so…just nevermind if you aren’t gonna read lol.

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I didn't know I needed to be so blunt.

Correlation does not imply causation. The fact Ultima is said to "have the power to rend the fabric of reality," and that was what happened during the Final Days, does not mean that Ultima (or another malevolent extraterrestrial) was responsible for it. That's jumping to a conclusion, most likely due to confirmation bias (i.e. that's what you want it to be).

That may turn out to be the truth, but it might not be either. (In fact with the Tower of Zot leaning further into IV, I'm pretty sure extraterrestrials are involved somehow.) Point is there's no clear answers one way or another. Lol.