Ardbert trusted Elidibus entirely, which he later (in ShB) says was very stupid of him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belhi
So while I don't blame Ardbert for wanting to save his world, I blame him for following the lies (and Elidibus admitted they were lies, in 5.3) of the Ascians instead of finding another way, like he did with the Shadowkeeper.
Disappointed with SHB story.
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06-08-2021, 08:11 PMYianKutku
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06-08-2021, 09:29 PMTensaihimeYeah, this. Every time an Ascian was on screen I was instantly prepared to mistrust whatever came out of his mouth, and wanted to throw hands as soon as I could.Quote:
Originally Posted by YianKutku
And the first thing I knew of Ardbert was that he had come to kill me and mine and destroy everything I worked for. Later I learned his motives, but that didn’t change the fact if he’d gotten what he wanted, we all would have been statistics. It takes time and effort to improve my opinion of somebody after that. When I saw him again in ShB, I just did not care to hear anything from him that wasn’t a contribution towards solving the Light problem. A perfect example: he followed me (again) into that one place, I didn’t appreciate that, but then he told me about the Tempest. THAT was something I could use. THAT was something worth hearing from him. Do something to help me out first, THEN you can try to paper things over and act like we’re such good friends. -
06-09-2021, 02:17 AMBelhiElidibus wants a rejoining which is really the only option Ardbert seems to have. It wasn't a lie. He didn't find another way with the Shadowkeeper. Hell what he did with the Shadowkeeper is what lead to the flood of light. Lets be clear. They had no plan B. No other option. Elidibus could be trusted because a rejoining was EXACTLY what he wanted. Sure it would kill everyone on the First who was still alive and probably a bunch of people on Eorzea but it would keep millions of souls from being trapped eternally in a void of light.Quote:
Originally Posted by YianKutku
Ardbert didn't have any real options. He had devoted himself to saving his world and serving Hydaelyn and it had damned his world. Hell, if he hadn't taken up Elidibus' offer the First would have been lost to the Light. Lets not forget that the WoL isn't innocent of being involved in desperate measures. We woke up Omega and that was a weapon that had destroyed worlds. If it wasn't so focused on trying to understand the nature of our strength, we likely wouldn't have stood a chance against it.
Seriously, give me one example of something else he could have tried. Even our character required a literal reset of time to save the first, let alone survive long enough to do so. Even then we just finished off what his team set the groundwork for. We got a stupid amount of help to succeed, including from Ardbert.
By that logic all the Beast tribes and Garleans should hate out guts with a passion and make us jump through hoops to so much as give us the time of day. Ardbert didn't have a solution. If he did he would have never had to go to the Source. Hell, he didn't even know why Minfilia had had him stay behind.Quote:
And the first thing I knew of Ardbert was that he had come to kill me and mine and destroy everything I worked for. Later I learned his motives, but that didn’t change the fact if he’d gotten what he wanted, we all would have been statistics. It takes time and effort to improve my opinion of somebody after that. When I saw him again in ShB, I just did not care to hear anything from him that wasn’t a contribution towards solving the Light problem. A perfect example: he followed me (again) into that one place, I didn’t appreciate that, but then he told me about the Tempest. THAT was something I could use. THAT was something worth hearing from him. Do something to help me out first, THEN you can try to paper things over and act like we’re such good friends.
The WoL and Ardbert had been very much in the same place and role. The difference was that unlike Ardbert, the WoL's efforts hadn't ended up coming close to destroying everything the WoL had worked for. However that very much could happen. Hell, Ardbert in the end is the only reason it didn't happen. -
06-09-2021, 04:58 AMTensaihimeI could live with this. Actually, I was already forced to deal with a ton of mistrust during the airship search in Coerthas, and this wouldn’t be much different. I’m honestly shocked (and usually suspicious) any time a Garlean says they want to work together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belhi
The WoL has faced all kinds of enemies, even been stabbed in the back and nearly lost everything. I see no problem with holding at arm’s length someone who has made such a deadly first impression until they can prove they’re worth more than a glare and battle stance.
edit: and it was Garlemald who came wanting to take over Doma and Ala Mhigo, and wanted to get the other city-states too. Wouldn’t WE be making THEM jump through hoops? -
06-09-2021, 05:06 AMDPZ2Elidibus has been with us since ARR, though. Like most Ascians, what they do is pretty much off-screen, because they're not the focus of our story - we are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erendis
That being said, you will find Elidibus in the ARR release, as well as all 3 expansions. -
06-09-2021, 05:46 AMErendis
Yes, Elidibus was here since ARR, but what did we know about him? Nothing.
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06-09-2021, 06:19 AMDPZ2What do we know about him now? I know more about him from the actual in-game stuff than from that short story you mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erendis
Then again, I don't consider Activision's penchant for telling the most interesting parts of their game's storyline in novels, nor do I wish for SE to emulate that nonsense. -
06-09-2021, 04:18 PMYianKutkuOne issue is we've had all sorts of extra information and insights into the cause of the Flood Of Light through further content, and I get the distinct impression the initial message of "Ardbert did things too well" back in 3.4 has been well and truly undercut by what we now know about the Flood Of Light, written after the fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belhi
Based on what we know about the Flood Of Light as of 5.5 (well, 5.4 to be precise), Ardbert wasn't responsible for the Flood Of Light, except in the sense that he was the one who happened to perform actions that the Ascians looked at and went "hey, we can use that to our advantage".
The Flood Of Light would not have happened if the Ascians weren't trying to tip the balance of the First towards Light anyway. The Flood Of Light would not have happened if anyone among the Ascians had checked up on what happened to Mitron and Loghrif. The Flood Of Light would not have happened if Emet-Selch had bothered to save Mitron (or take any steps to potentially saving Mitron) instead of "I'll just raise another shard, Eden doesn't matter".
And the continued never-ending Light of the First would not have happened if Emet-Selch hadn't tried to meddle with the First by introducing Vauthry, and propagating the Sin Eaters.
One thing Ardbert could have tried to stave off the Flood Of Light was to talk to Cylva after confronting Mitron and Loghrif. Not to fully trust Cylva, but at least gather more information on what is happening. He's also free to talk to Elidibus, but must keep in mind that Elidibus may not be trustworthy. We know Cylva believed even a world lost to a Flood is still salvageable, which was the whole point behind her Shadowkeeper act. (Whether it was true is another matter; as it turned out, it's indeed true, but not necessarily using the methods the Ascians tempted Cylva with.)
And once Hydaelyn managed to find a suitable emissary in Minfilia, she sent Minfilia to the First to halt the Flood of Light. So it's not like Hydaelyn betrayed Ardbert, except in the sense that Hydaelyn remained silent to Ardbert's entreaties because Hydaelyn was literally too weak to respond.
Our characters required a time reset because, once again, Emet-Selch and Elidibus were interfering. If we had gone on doing what we did, and Emet-Selch had not done anything, and Elidibus didn't bother possessing Zenos's corpse, the First would have recovered from the Flood (albeit at a much slower pace), and there would not have been an Eighth Umbral Calamity we needed to reset. I will concede that the war against the Garlean Empire would still have horrific casualties due to Black Rose, but not to the point of Calamity.
As always, it leads back to the Ascians causing the problems. It might not have been intended to be entirely the Ascians' fault back in 3.4, but now in 5.5, we know it totally is. -
06-09-2021, 04:57 PMMrThinkerInteresting. So let me try to break some of the arguments presented down and argue on Belhi's side on why Ardbert made the best decisions he could. This is not an arguement about who was the true cause of the flood. On that point, the only thing I can say is that Ardbert coud only act on his known information, and I think the story has explained it well enough why he couldn't have known more.Quote:
Originally Posted by YianKutku
Lets get this out of the way. In a broad sense, yes this is correct.Quote:
Based on what we know about the Flood Of Light as of 5.5 (well, 5.4 to be precise), Ardbert wasn't responsible for the Flood Of Light, except in the sense that he was the one who happened to perform actions that the Ascians looked at and went "hey, we can use that to our advantage".
The Flood of Light would not have happened if the Ascians weren't trying to tip the balance of the First towards Light anyway. The Flood Of Light would not have happened if anyone among the Ascians had checked up on what happened to Mitron and Loghrif. The Flood Of Light would not have happened if Emet-Selch had bothered to save Mitron (or take any steps to potentially saving Mitron) instead of "I'll just raise another shard, Eden doesn't matter".
True, the Ascians took a world already listing towards Light and pushed it further.
True, the Ascians did take advantage of the Flood. Or rather, they took advantage of the reprieve against the Flood bought by Minfillia stalling Eden. The initial plan never involved an actual Flood, and they were rushing to get a Rejoining going before Minfilia went over.
True, according to Mitron, Emet-Selch could have saved his soul at any point if he wanted to and the threat of the Flood could have been negated.
The problem is that Ardbert and his companions knew none of these things, and had no reasonable way of discovering them either. They acted on what little information they had on hand.
No, the Lightwardens were already a thing, and so was the Everlasting Light sky. Vauthry happened in the latter-half of the century following the Flood, and things still looked bleak, even with Eulmore fighting against the Eaters.Quote:
...the continued never-ending Light of the First would not have happened if Emet-Selch hadn't tried to meddle with the First by introducing Vauthry, and propagating the Sin Eaters.
Cylva knew nothing. In fact, while a lot of people say she was working to save the Thirteenth by saving the First, thats not the truth of it at all. She was told the fall of the Thirteenth doomed the First to the same fate by the hands of Light and the only way to save a world doomed by her failure was to undergo a rejoining.Quote:
One thing Ardbert could have tried to stave off the Flood Of Light was to talk to Cylva after confronting Mitron and Loghrif. Not to fully trust Cylva, but at least gather more information on what is happening. He's also free to talk to Elidibus, but must keep in mind that Elidibus may not be trustworthy. We know Cylva believed even a world lost to a Flood is still salvageable, which was the whole point behind her Shadowkeeper act. (Whether it was true is another matter; as it turned out, it's indeed true, but not necessarily using the methods the Ascians tempted Cylva with.)
The Italics are the actual meaning of what she said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylva
Cylva believed her world was lost. It's Unukalhai in the Void Quests who brings up the idea of saving the Thirteenth and subsequently ignites such a hope in her. Unless you meant 'saving the Thirteenth' in a 'Rejoining' kind of way... which still isnt supported by her words and her actions. Her stint as the "Shadowkeeper" was to save a world doomed by her failure. She believed the Thirteenth was gone, no way to be saved. And thus she would have been useless in solving the threat of the Flood. Something else to point out is that Cylva also had no idea that Mitron became Eden, and thus the source of the Flood.
And again, how was Ardbert supposed to know that? From his perspective, she literally left him and the others in the lurch. We know its not her fault, but there was no way for Ardbert to.Quote:
And once Hydaelyn managed to find a suitable emissary in Minfilia, she sent Minfilia to the First to halt the Flood of Light. So it's not like Hydaelyn betrayed Ardbert, except in the sense that Hydaelyn remained silent to Ardbert's entreaties because Hydaelyn was literally too weak to respond.
Ardbert and his friends had no known course of action, and so they chose what seemed like the only path open to them, because the Ascians were also the only ones who were able to give them any form of knowledge about the problem. And because of that, all that Elidibus needed to do was to both poke at wounds the heroes already had open, and then offer what seemed like a bandage. The heroes were desperate. And when people are desperate, caution and good sense tend to fly out the window. -
06-09-2021, 05:43 PMYianKutkuI probably should have phrased it more clearly. (My excuse is I'm kind of fighting my keyboard, which is undergoing some really annoying switch bounce.)Quote:
Originally Posted by MrThinker
My point was more that I accept Ardbert doesn't know the entire situation, but that does not excuse his taking Elidibus's words at face value. Especially since the Ascians have a habit (presumably subconscious, since they do it even when they don't need to) of speaking in poetic implications, rather than clear communication.
And this:
is basically why I say (and Ardbert himself says) he was wrong for trusting Elidibus. Ardbert was acting on what information he currently had on hand. He should have tried to obtain more information, and to vet that information. It's something he should have learned during the course of his adventures, mainly because from what we see of his adventures through the Cardinal Virtues echo visions and Seto's short story, Ardbert going off half-informed and having to be reined in by his comrades is something that happened in his early days, but by the time he learned the true identity of the Shadowkeeper, he put in enough thought to identify a true mastermind.Quote:
The problem is that Ardbert and his companions knew none of these things, and had no reasonable way of discovering them either. They acted on what little information they had on hand.
To be clear, I'm not saying Ardbert wasn't understandable for listening to and trusting Elidibus. He was presumably in an emotionally unstable state, and not thinking clearly. But that still made his actions stupid (or "not smart", at the least). Ardbert admitted that later in 5.0, which is why I'm still well-disposed towards him. He made a mistake, and owned up to it, which makes him all good with me, but that doesn't change that it was a mistake.
Hence why I said the recovery would be much slower, and probably much more devastating in casualties, especially among the long line of Minfilias. But I still believe the First would have recovered, rather than just staving off the inevitable, because of something that might be one off those "don't think about it too hard" disconnects between story and gameplay: there's no actual guarantee that the player character would have taken care of Eden, since it's side content. So all the celebrations and thanks of the 5.x series where the inhabitants of the First go "thank you for saving us from the Flood of Light" would have been really weird if Eden was still that big of a threat. (Especially when the big farewell scene was in 5.3, and Eden was finally defeated in 5.4.)Quote:
No, the Lightwardens were already a thing, and so was the Everlasting Light sky. Vauthry happened in the latter-half of the century following the Flood, and things still looked bleak, even with Eulmore fighting against the Eaters.
Honestly I probably will accept this. My original viewpoint was exactly what you said, but I was convinced otherwise by, well, this lore forum. At this point I consider this an issue with the aforementioned "poetic implications" of Ascian words, as relayed to us. The Ascians phrased their message to Cylva in several disjointed clauses, and trying to make sense of it requires rather a lot of assumptions that could easily be negated with "they didn't actually say that".Quote:
Cylva knew nothing. In fact, while a lot of people say she was working to save the Thirteenth by saving the First, thats not the truth of it at all. She was told the fall of the Thirteenth doomed the First to the same fate by the hands of Light and the only way to save a world doomed by her failure was to undergo a rejoining.
(I can rant about the sheer unhelpfulness of what Cylva said in terms of eking out a clear meaning, but that would probably be going a bit afield. If anyone wants, I'll do it, with the understanding that it's just a rant without solution.)
The more I think about it, the more I believe Cylva was tricked in the same way many were tricked by the Ascians: the Ascians made several statements, and left it to Cylva to join the dots herself in a way that was most convenient to them. Again, it would be off-topic to analyze those words now, but my interpretation (taken from this forum) was that Cylva did think she could, through some "primordial balance" method, save the Thirteenth by tilting the First towards Light. Not all the way to a Flood Of Light, but more towards the "ready for Rejoining" threshold.Quote:
Cylva believed her world was lost. It's Unukalhai in the Void Quests who brings up the idea of saving the Thirteenth and subsequently ignites such a hope in her. Unless you meant 'saving the Thirteenth' in a 'Rejoining' kind of way... which still isnt supported by her words and her actions. Her stint as the "Shadowkeeper" was to save a world doomed by her failure. She believed the Thirteenth was gone, no way to be saved. And thus she would have been useless in solving the threat of the Flood. Something else to point out is that Cylva also had no idea that Mitron became Eden, and thus the source of the Flood.
Notably, Cylva as the Shadowkeeper didn't try to cause enough Darkness to counterbalance the Light of Ardbert and his friends. She caused enough Darkness to almost counterbalance the Light, but making it just weak enough for the Light to triumph. That would be an odd decision to make if the warning was that Primordial Forces would cause the First to tip to Light anyway, without her interference.
I admit I'm not entirely sure what the exact dialogue was, but I've always been a little suspicious about how Ardbert knew about Hydaelyn in the first place. In the Cardinal Virtues echo scenes and Seto's short story, I don't think anyone actually mentioned Hydaelyn. However, I don't recall it clearly enough, so I'm willing to be proven wrong.Quote:
And again, how was Ardbert supposed to know that? From his perspective, she literally left him and the others in the lurch. We know its not her fault, but there was no way for Ardbert to.
My unsupported speculation (again, which may be completely wrong) is that the reveal of Hydaelyn as an active force (as opposed to just "the Light" in general) was told to Ardbert by either Cylva or Elidibus. And given the deeply suspect manner of bias by the Ascians on what Hydaelyn actually is (cf Lahabrea's Praetorium rant), I feel like Ardbert may have gotten that biased viewpoint.
Well, yes. Ardbert was not thinking clearly, and understandably so. As mentioned, I understand why Ardbert acted the way he did, but I don't accept that he was correct to act the way he did.Quote:
Ardbert and his friends had no known course of action, and so they chose what seemed like the only path open to them, because the Ascians were also the only ones who were able to give them any form of knowledge about the problem. And because of that, all that Elidibus needed to do was to both poke at wounds the heroes already had open, and then offer what seemed like a bandage. The heroes were desperate. And when people are desperate, caution and good sense tend to fly out the window.