Ninjutsu Review!

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

My personal opinion? Replace or change Hyoton to:
1. an ability for solo content that gives survivability
2.Turn it into a situational ability that makes using Fuma Shuriken or other ninjutsu worthwhile under certain conditions.
3. Make it a party utility skill - Ex: enemy incoming damage reduced by 10%

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I hear what you're saying and have had some of these thoughts myself, but some thoughts:

1. Despite my own suggestion of a heal for solo content, I don't actually think that a solo ability is either sufficiently useful nor in keeping with the general design of FF14 classes.
2. I see where you're going with this, but we already have an ability that modifies ninjutsu - Kassatsu. I'm skeptical that layering other ninjutsu modifiers on top of Kassatsu is a good idea. (For instance, Kassatsu and Ten Chi Jin already don't play well together.)
3. Similar to (1), I like this idea but don't think that it works. An ice-based group barrier could be cool, but it'd basically only be useful during those periods where a boss is winding up a big attack and everyone is just standing there; outside of that, it's hard for a shield to be useful. Encounters can't be designed around a NIN shield, so the NIN shield would be largely superfluous and likely not compete with just doing damage.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I hate the fact that Fuma Shuriken is mostly useless after Raiton... I agree that it could be nice if they'd just turn Shadow Fang into something else and gave a bleeding dot to Fuma Shuriken.

Actually the current Shadow Fang design is pretty bad. A dot with a recast time longer than the dot duration basically removes the principle of a dot play, which is to keep monitoring the debuff and reapply at the best time possible, usually just before it expires. You basicallt don't have to worry - at all - for the debuff.

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Shadow fang CD lines up to be used in the truck attack window, always, if you’re playing optimally.

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

I hear what you're saying and have had some of these thoughts myself, but some thoughts:

1. Despite my own suggestion of a heal for solo content, I don't actually think that a solo ability is either sufficiently useful nor in keeping with the general design of FF14 classes.
2. I see where you're going with this, but we already have an ability that modifies ninjutsu - Kassatsu. I'm skeptical that layering other ninjutsu modifiers on top of Kassatsu is a good idea. (For instance, Kassatsu and Ten Chi Jin already don't play well together.)
3. Similar to (1), I like this idea but don't think that it works. An ice-based group barrier could be cool, but it'd basically only be useful during those periods where a boss is winding up a big attack and everyone is just standing there; outside of that, it's hard for a shield to be useful. Encounters can't be designed around a NIN shield, so the NIN shield would be largely superfluous and likely not compete with just doing damage.

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For 2, I'm thinking something more similar to the lines of using the base skill rather than be modified into a different ninjutsu by Kassatsu. For example, Hyoton applies a 250 potency bonus stacking buff to fuma shuriken for 10-15 seconds, so each use of Fuma Shuriken increases the stack by 1 but all stacks go away after 15 seconds.

In this situation, using Hyoton when Ten Chi Jin is up would be better to use Hyoton + Fuma Shuriken over Raiton x2. Things however simplify after unlocking Hyosho at lv 76 since you have a huge damage upgrade upgrade to Hyoton under Kassatsu.

Suiton + Hyoton + Kassatsu Fuma Shuriken
600 + 400 + 750(*0.3) = 1975
Sution + Raiton + Kassatsu Raiton
600 + 800 + 800(*0.3) = 2440
Suiton + Hyoton + TCJ Fuma + Kassatsu Fuma Shuriken
600 + 400 + 750 + 1000(*0.3) = 3050
Sution + Raiton + TCJ Fuma + Kassatsu Raiton
600 + 800 + 500 + 800(*0.3) = 2940

Suiton + Raition + Kassatsu Hyosho
600 + 800 + 1200(*0.3) = 2960
Suiton + Raiton + TCJ Fuma + Kassatsu Hyosho Ranryu
600 + 800 + 500 + 1200(*0.3) = 3460
Suiton + Hyoton + TCJ Fuma + Kassatsu Hyosho Ranryu
600 + 400 + 750 + 1200(*0.3) = 3310

Numbers and potencies for Hyoton and stacking buff can be adjusted, though that's a lot more number crunching and specifics than I would like. I look at Kassatsu's ninjutsu separately than grouping up general ninjutsu with them because ideally, you wouldn't be using Kassatsu for skills outside of their improved counterparts (Hyosho Ranryu, Goka Mekkyaku, and whatever other future ninjutsu gets upgraded), which will make more complications with Hyoton, hence I don't favor this idea as much because ultimately at the end of the day, you run into the same problem as before - Suiton and Raiton occupies the main DPS ninjutsu slots which squeezes Hyoton out of the picture. Hence I rather see Hyoton as a defensive-support oriented skill that shares a slot with DPS skills.


For 1, it depends on how you consider a job's general design. Summoner is probably the most notable version - has 2 charges of Stoneskin if they choose to sacrifice DPS for self shields + Phoenix in their rotation for group & solo healing. With Ress, Party Buff (devotion), and a group heal, they are very well rounded for solo play. MNK has Riddle of Earth x3, but can also use Fists of Earth to be extra tanky if they decide to not use Fists of Fire. RDM has vercure on the GCD which can be hardcast if necessary while the dualcast spell can be used for DPS. SAM has Third Eye into Merciful Eyes if you don't use the DPS alternative, but they are very heavily centered to dishing out as much damage moreso than other jobs. However, there is certainly a lot more control to play it safer in other job's toolkits under non-optimal situations. Nin on the other hand just has Shadeshift and it has a 120 second cooldown. Hence, I was thinking for Nin, the tradeoff for big DPS is a decently strong survival tool.

For 3, I was thinking more along the lines of keeping it as an attack, but remove the bind effect and replace it with a 10% damage down effect (something similar to DoT but the status effect is a Reprisal instead). It's a DPS loss, but the tradeoff is the defense it offers instead. I wasn't thinking that encounters should be designed with a NIN shield but rather along the lines of the way encounters aren't designed with a RDM on standby to ress people if healers end up dying. Using something like this requires more situational awareness, such as if the caster died before they got to addle and the ranged dps's tactician/shield samba is on cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Ariel_Valmont

Shadow fang CD lines up to be used in the truck attack window, always, if you’re playing optimally.

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Wait... are DoTs affected by Trick Attack??

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Wait... are DoTs affected by Trick Attack??

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I think they are while they tick during the vulnerability. Would need confirmation.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Wait... are DoTs affected by Trick Attack??

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DoTs snapshot any active buffs or debuffs when they are applied. It's why during the BRD opener you'll see them Iron Jaws right just before Raging Strikes ends to ensure that they get another 30s of buffed DoTs. The exception to this would be DRK's Living Shadow and MCH's Automaton Queen which only pay attention to what's currently active and don't snapshot since they're basically Pets and don't care about your buffs or debuffs.

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Originally Posted by Beddict

DoTs snapshot any active buffs or debuffs when they are applied. It's why during the BRD opener you'll see them Iron Jaws right just before Raging Strikes ends to ensure that they get another 30s of buffed DoTs. The exception to this would be DRK's Living Shadow and MCH's Automaton Queen which only pay attention to what's currently active and don't snapshot since they're basically Pets and don't care about your buffs or debuffs.

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Thanks for the response, I wouldn’t have been able to answer with 100% certainty, but I figured that’s how they worked.

Ditto.
Thank you for the answer Beddict~

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Originally Posted by Ariel_Valmont

Shadow fang CD lines up to be used in the truck attack window, always, if you’re playing optimally.

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I know, but still makes it a "brainless" dot, since you don't have to manage the dot itself, which is exactly the element that I was talking about previously. Either being TA cooldown or the Shadowfang cooldown, you just fire the dot and forget about it until then.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I know, but still makes it a "brainless" dot, since you don't have to manage the dot itself, which is exactly the element that I was talking about previously. Either being TA cooldown or the Shadowfang cooldown, you just fire the dot and forget about it until then.

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I suppose we should just homogenize NIN and bring it in line with every other dot job and make them mindlessly maintain it... that will fix it!