If the weapon at current stage turn out at ilevel 535 and best in slot, I don't mind keeping this difficulty, as at current point is worse than putting yourself together doing savage runs that is more or less scripted and does not rely on chance and 'lootboxes'
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02-04-2021, 03:44 AMThemarvin
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02-04-2021, 06:41 AMShougunIt makes dispassionate sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryaz
Two options.
1 gives you 3 strength and 2 agility.
1 gives you 2.5 - 3 agility and 0 strength.
The first option can be, given circumstances, overall better choice. The first option is Bozja.
If you make FATEs equal to or lessor than Bozja then FATEs are 100% the worst choice. Also the difficulty of Bozja, outside of getting bodies to actually do stuff (like the castrum gating progression), is not that much (akin to the S rank hunts). Like Eureka. It's not like Bozja is savage content (in general, yes I know there is literally a savage option lol). So Bozja's difficulty doesn't really justify that it has to be much better when it already has an overall greater wealth than FATEs. People pick FATEs because they either don't know how to farm the content inside Bozja (certain activities reward differently) or their #1 priority was just relic (and not Bozja type content as a whole).
There are opportunities to improve Bozja's rewards (which it looks like SE tried a bit in the recent patch, which again to me says they're trying to do stuff (hence why in another post I said I feel sympathy)), but to suggest that FATEs (outside of Bozja) have to be worse or equal to the same rate as relic inside Bozja while Bozja ALSO provides other rewards on top of that and isn't necessarily that difficult... seems like "no, that's not right - that isn't really that fair". May suggest why it was even an option in the first place, which to say was clearly it was requested by quite a few people who didn't like Eureka in the first place (yet they also kind of boned those players in their recent move lol, so SE is not getting points from either side in some situations.. XD).
Thing is, apparently, this type of content has a very hard time justifying itself if it doesn't have relic because the rest of it is only "sort of worth it". People are clearly not doing it simply because of the fun of it (enough so at least that the content is having body troubles, not speaking for every person as an individual), or the other glamour potentials. I think that in and of itself speaks to the whole Eureka and Bozja design (for players at large). Naturally less bodies in the instance causes problems for those who do like it, but I guess I'm slightly reticent on the concept that if people don't prefer to do something that therefore you must force them to do it "for the good of the people" sort of thing (not that I'm completely against the concept, but I would need convincing for this particular situation- as I said.. reticent).
If anything I see a lot of people upset with the newer parts that force people to continue to use Bozja to relic, some of it due to castrum naturally but it looks like many who comment didn't really want to deal with that all in the first place.
I actually want to agree with Goji that Eureka like content would probably be better if they had made it more casual friendly (OR, not agree and say it should have been more hardcore and narrowed down in target audience- but SE needs to target an audience), perhaps less people in general (to reduce the zerg aspect) but still keep a ebb and flow of players running about while many things are achievable with much smaller groups (like castrum licky licky with 4 - 8 people). I think it's rather uncool to ask for relatively 'achievable' content (in a sense "easy", like most MSQ) but having watched many MMOs I think that is literally the most popular and desired type of content that constantly gets begged to be brought to those levels if not already. That is "the content" that most people do. You can see it simply by the achievements, very few people actually do hard content - especially on the chaotic western side where we can hardly agree on strategies for content lol (unified strategies make content 'easier', we just do poorly at that as an average group..). Because there are already ultimate and savage type gears I do think that the content goal of relic should absolutely be under the concept of "achievable" (general sense "easy"), especially as the relic is designed to lag behind most content (until the very very end).
To bring it full circle, if Bozja is to be FOR RELIC, which would increase the desire to do it obviously (as it seems that is a major reason people didn't do it for the first step, Bozja isn't enough of it's own value without it to get enough bodies to make it over the gate), then I think Bozja should be designed for casuals (that doesn't mean it has to lose all the goofy flavor, but certain concepts could absolutely be cut and or re-progression pathed and be a gain for that casual audience). Although as I said I don't think Eureka and relics have to be tied together, in which case Eureka can be as obtuse as it wants but then relic should absolutely maintain an entirely valid secondary path (like FATEs were in the first step of relic). If Eureka cannot validate itself outside of being the only good option for relics then I think that is a statement on the content itself (because it's not like it doesn't offer a wide array of other benefits- from unique gameplay that is different than the core usual experience, leveling and even glamours to mounts which some can be sold for gil, and more). Bozja is not just relics, but many people talk about it like that's the only reason to do it "bozja is bad because people are not forced to do it for relics" is the essence of what I read a lot of- to me that just reads as "bozja is bad because other people don't have to do what they didn't want to do".
A lot of decent reward concepts from the content but it seems like there is only one whistle wet enough to get people to want to do it and that's why people are not 'in the content' (relics), that's not a good comment on the situation - and to me speaks to the content itself as a whole rather than "SE did wrong by not forcing relic into the content". I would also balance that comment against the concept that not everything needs to be designed for "everyone" / "the general majority" but what and how much you put where becomes important then.
Ultimately though it seems clear that Eureka's design (3.0, if that) needs to find a better fixed target audience goal (either it'll be generally quite casual friendly or perhaps even more hardcore- but then I don't think relic should be strictly tied to it, if people can't get over a split relationship then it should be removed from Eureka 3.0 entirely as I think that is an unhealthy expectation, the math of FATEs being equal or worse devalues the work for someone who doesn't like Bozja while Bozja is not 'that' hard- like S rank hunts are not really that hard). Something is off and it seems both parties are upset (casual and not). Casual/'modern era' MMO players want to take their ball else where, or change the stadium's structure, and medium-hardcore want to make it a bad choice to do that and force the casual to go into their stadium (with many, from what I've read, wanting some of the systems that Eureka 1.0 used). There is a fundamental of player difference between the two, neither are entirely right or wrong (99% opinions), but naturally on top of a structural issue there is also some design issues like castrum having entrance problems (needs too many people OR just isn't valuable enough, I imagine that castrum is salt in the wound making all of these problems bigger for everyone- as both parties suffer at the gates of castrum and other body count gates, although with slightly different end goals in mind). -
02-04-2021, 07:38 AMDeceptusAnd that content exists.Quote:
Originally Posted by van_arn
It's EX trials and POTD/HOH top floors. -
02-04-2021, 07:40 AMPacketdancerOkay, but I want a Deep Dungeon where I can use all my level 80 skills. :'(Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
(I recognize Bozja is the equivalent for this expansion when it comes to leveling. I am even insane enough to enjoy Bozja. But I love roguelikes and I have people I regularly run the Deep Dungeons with, and so the lack of a current endgame Deep Dungeon does still give me Large Sads.) -
02-04-2021, 08:14 AMvan_arnIt's Bozja now, too. Keep it that way; too many got accustomed to free relics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
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02-04-2021, 08:23 AMShougunBack in my (our) day we got relics for hecking the bed!Quote:
Originally Posted by van_arn
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02-04-2021, 09:06 AMLittleImp
The main issue with Bozja is the time commitment required for certain rewards, and it being a suboptimal path to getting the relic.
The difficulty is completely fine; If my SO can get through Castrum death free while playing this game for maybe 3-4 hours a week in total, anyone can. She legitimately plays this game at a 'pushing random buttons' level of casual, but still managed to pilot her character through all of Bozja. If anyone is finding Bozja prohibitively difficult, I'm genuinely concerned for them >.> -
02-04-2021, 09:46 AMDrWho2010the items you need to hand in with the two sets of gear for the dyeable judge gear is from Delubrium savage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatre
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02-04-2021, 09:48 AMDogempireTbf I actually liked the "free" relics. Call me crazy but I like that there was a weapon option for the classes that I don't play often enough that I can justify spending gil on a crafted weapon. I'm sure that many casual players who only logged on to play occasionally also felt the same way about having an easy to get catch-up weapon.Quote:
Originally Posted by van_arn
I think that a lot of people who want the relics to be hard to get because they're gated by more difficult content forget that elitism comes at the cost of the enjoyment of the average "casual" player. Especially in the case of suddenly gatekeeping previously casual friendly items like the Bozja relics. -
02-04-2021, 10:09 AMAvatreAh, so a low drop chance item like the upgrade items from Castrum then.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrWho2010