At this point should Bard and... I dunno, "Sniper" just be split into two jobs?

Im already predicting beastmaster as ranged limited. Unless they add a whole support role I don't see a bard sniper split. And I absolutely do not use them ever see them doing that. It might just end with that as 4 for each type.

I don't see how a support role could be less homogenized than the tanks.

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Originally Posted by Bsrking5

Im already predicting beastmaster as ranged limited. Unless they add a whole support role I don't see a bard sniper split. And I absolutely do not use them ever see them doing that. It might just end with that as 4 for each type.

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I hold onto some vague hope, I guess, since Yoshi-P occasionally talks about not wanting new content to get too predictable, and them really liking the ability to surprise players. Of course, that's a mile and a half away from a specific hope like "boy more roles sure would be nice," but I think it would be a logical and very interesting way to expand the gameplay systems without having to turn everything on its head. I'll keep this dream in my back pocket alongside a generally lower GCD and a dramatically higher tick rate. I'm not expecting it, but I can hope, can't I?

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Originally Posted by Xbob42

Are we too far down the rabbit hole? It kind of seems like the opposite to me. Like the Bard part of the class is slowly being bled out to focus on the archery. For the storyline, definitely, but as far as mechanics and design, it doesn't really strike me as very Bard-y at all anymore.

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Splitting Bard now would necessitate revamping the entire lore surrounding the job. They subsequently have to redesign the entire job while designing a brand new one. Simply put, it would require far too much work. Furthermore, Bard cannot function in this game the way it typically has in other FF titles. We don't have a dedicated support role, thus it has to contribute damage. Unless they opted to make new Bard a healer, which it has never been in any iteration, they'll need to deal damage.

I don't disagree that they have drained out far too much of the Bard gameplay aspects this expansion but Stormblood merged them to near perfection. The issue isn't Bard vs. Ranger but the dev team "fixing" what was never broken in the first place out of some strange belief they can't have two support Range jobs.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Splitting Bard now would necessitate revamping the entire lore surrounding the job.

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I understand the rest of what you said, so I'm not ignoring it, I just... am I the only one who doesn't think it would be some huge undertaking to revamp the "lore" of like 17 job quests that are mostly some text followed by walking to a place and killing a thing or clicking on a thing? I get that it's not nothing, but really, the "lore" doesn't amount to much when you zoom out a bit. It's not like the job quests were ever action packed endeavors filled with huge unique art assets and high quality voice acting.

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Originally Posted by Xbob42

I understand the rest of what you said, so I'm not ignoring it, I just... am I the only one who doesn't think it would be some huge undertaking to revamp the "lore" of like 17 job quests that are mostly some text followed by walking to a place and killing a thing or clicking on a thing? I get that it's not nothing, but really, the "lore" doesn't amount to much when you zoom out a bit. It's not like the job quests were ever action packed endeavors filled with huge unique art assets and high quality voice acting.

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I think you are severely underestimating the amount of time and resources that would entail. We can't even have simple things taken care of, let alone something like that.

Why should it impact the lore? Didn't they remove abilities from a lot of jobs already without impacting much of the lore and simply by changing a couple job quests to use an action instead of another?
Why should it be different if they change how bard works?

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Originally Posted by Xbob42

I understand the rest of what you said, so I'm not ignoring it, I just... am I the only one who doesn't think it would be some huge undertaking to revamp the "lore" of like 17 job quests that are mostly some text followed by walking to a place and killing a thing or clicking on a thing? I get that it's not nothing, but really, the "lore" doesn't amount to much when you zoom out a bit. It's not like the job quests were ever action packed endeavors filled with huge unique art assets and high quality voice acting.

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sounds like you don't think writing is "real work"

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Originally Posted by Xbob42

I understand the rest of what you said, so I'm not ignoring it, I just... am I the only one who doesn't think it would be some huge undertaking to revamp the "lore" of like 17 job quests that are mostly some text followed by walking to a place and killing a thing or clicking on a thing? I get that it's not nothing, but really, the "lore" doesn't amount to much when you zoom out a bit. It's not like the job quests were ever action packed endeavors filled with huge unique art assets and high quality voice acting.

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You're severely underestimating the amount of work that goes into job quests. Not only do they have to rewrite a sizeable portion of both Archer and Bard but need to essentially change every reference the game ever makes since the hypothetical "New Bard" can't have any connection to what is now "Sniper/Ranger". Subsequently, they now have to re-animate all those cut scenes, battles and etc. All of this before having to then create entirely new lore for what is effectively two new jobs. Current Bard may be Bard in name only, but the job's core mechanic are still songs—songs it no longer has. Therefore, they need a new "gimmick." If you believe this "doesn't amount to much," let me put it this way. Ultimate is primarily reused animations and mechanics yet it still takes them three months (or more) to design it.

And they could do all this only to be met with massive scorn from the playerbase who liked Bard as is (or past iterations of it). Simply put, it's a massive amount of work for very little gain. They are far better off designing new jobs from the ground up.

The lore isn't a matter of "how the quests are structured" or "how abilities tie into the quests". The lore is how Gridania's archers have a history of plucking their bowstrings and sing songs on the battlefield to inspire their friends and comrades. The 50+ questline is about a captain in the grand company trying to revive this tradition and start a warsong unit in the Twin Adders, and the Gods' Quiver lends him one of their delinquent archers with the intent of foiling a plan he sees as fruitless, etc. There's multiple bow weapons designed with the intent of being half-harp.

Looking at just writing alone: If they remove the bow from the bard, what does this do to the story and history of the world? Moving onward and retroactively? That's text and code to change, that's localization for multiple languages. And then that's QAing to make sure everything flows correctly and nothing is busted.

Now, what does it do in combat? Is it like FF11's bard, where in group situations it just runs around and casts multiple songs without pulling out any weapon? How does it play? How do they fit this into the current system? If it doesn't offer prominent support, players won't want to use it. If it's too prominent, players won't want to go without it. Are we keeping existing abilities? We're essentially making two jobs here, that's new animations, that's new weapons to model, etc. And again, this all has to be QA'd and tested.