Just saw the end of 1.0

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

I think it might be time to bump this....

We have "the 12" summoned at cartenou, we have the OTHER 12 summoned as the KotR, we have the convocation of 13, who kicks out ONE to become 12.... but now we have the 12 as pre-existing gods?

I still feel like this is suspicious.

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Um, it was always called the Convocation of Fourteen - it's number was reduced to 13 after

Azem

resigned and they simply never chose a replacement (because the Final Days occurred soon after). The Convocation never changed their name to reflect that they were down by one because they simply had more important things to worry about.

And Lousioix didn't summon the Twelve literally, he merely drew on their power (hence why they simply materialized as their symbols).

Although we still don't know what the Twelve really are (and Myths of the Realm so far gives more questions than it answers), a

post-Sundering creation by either the Undersundered Ascians or Venat is likely.

Also there's literally no indication that the Knights Twelve had any relation whatsoever to any of the gods, let alone the whole crew, where the hell is that coming from beyond 'there is a common number'?

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Also there's literally no indication that the Knights Twelve had any relation whatsoever to any of the gods, let alone the whole crew, where the hell is that coming from beyond 'there is a common number'?

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Other than there being twelve of them, there is really no connection whatsoever.

The Knights Twelve are very likely inspired by real-world history and legend, namely the legendary Twelve Peers (Paladins) of Charlemagne, just as Ishgard as a whole draws much inspiration from medieval France.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Other than there being twelve of them, there is really no connection whatsoever.

The Knights Twelve are very likely inspired by real-world history and legend, namely the legendary Twelve Peers (Paladins) of Charlemagne, just as Ishgard as a whole draws much inspiration from medieval France.

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Given they literally turn into the FFVII summon Knights of the Round, which was actually based on King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table (they actually sit at a round table in Ishgard, and even Estinien makes a quip about "sod them and their swivving round table!", it's clear that Thordan and the Knights Twelve are probably more closer based on Arthurian legend (something even the FF Wiki aknowledges.).

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Given they literally turn into the FFVII summon Knights of the Round, which was actually based on King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table (they actually sit at a round table in Ishgard, and even Estinien makes a quip about "sod them and their swivving round table!", it's clear that Thordan and the Knights Twelve are probably more closer based on Arthurian legend (something even the FF Wiki aknowledges.).

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The FF wiki also thinks that Fandaniel is a Hebrew name and goes into two paragraphs of information that confirms the author knows nothing about Hebrew or Japanese, so take it with a grain of salt.

But yes, the Knights Twelve/Knights of the Round are broadly based on Arthur's knights. However, the legendary Knights of the Round Table usually number somewhere in the triple digits (varying depending on legend), so they had to trim down that list a little. Why wouldn't they borrow from the legendary order of knights from the neighboring country, which probably shared some origin roots anyway?

There's a bunch of places that twelve could be coming from as a pertinent number, most notably the Zodiac (both western and Chinese). But personally, I think that just in terms of ballpark figures for group sizes, twelve is a really comfy number, which might be why it comes up in so many places anyway. It's big enough that it starts to feel like a lot, but not so big that it'd be impossible to characterize all of them differently.

Twelve is a recurring number in the real world as well, simply because several Western societies came to view the number as 'divine'. That's why it has a prominent role in our time/calendar systems. This in turn creates more situations in which people end up attaching significance to the number.

There is one very important set of Twelve that hasn't been brought up yet. The Twelve Archons lead by Nyunkrepf. As you may recall, they built a ship known as the Nyunkrepf's Hope to rescue countless people from the great flood caused by the Sixth Umbral Calamity (of Water), at the end of the War of the Magi. According to the EE (v.1 p. 169), the ship was almost destroyed by an incoming tidal wave, at which point Nyunkrepf in desperation teleported it away. He had initially planned to teleport it to the Isle of Yorn just south of what is now Old Sharlayan, but it instead ended up in Abalathia's Spine, where it perched precariously on the mountain top. The magical ship is actually still there to this very day, and you can visit it in the southern section of the Peaks, along with its own Sightseeing Log entry. The corresponding mountain is now named Mount Yorn, as a result. (the Yorn Pig adds that you fight during A5S in the Minotaur portion of the fight is yet another Sharlayan reference, if you'll recall).

We know that the Ala Mhigans revere Rhalgr, having followed his comet in the night sky that lead them away from the Flood waters into the eastern reaches of the Abalathia's Spine, where they set up their kingdom (EE v.1 p.175). Rhalgr himself references this in the Alliance raid fight with a falling meteor attack called 'Rhalgr's Beacon'. Now it turns out that one of the Twelve Archons was a Roegadyn named Ahldbhar, who was described in a 1.0 quest (Of Archons and Muses) to be the very likeness of Rhalgr. If this is still canonically true, then it's possible that he was the one who lead some of the people rescued on Nyunkrepf's Hope east to found the nation of Ala Mhigo, which is what all the statues are based off of.

We also know that there was another group that headed west, lead by Nyunkrepf himself. They journeyed first into the Dravanian Hinterlands, where they built a second ship to travel to and ultimately found what is now modern day Sharlayan (EE v.1 p.169).

According to the sightseeing log entry for Meryall Agronomics in Labyrinthos, there were only seven out of the twelve Archons who were actually instrumental in Sharlayan's founding. Meryall in particular was responsible for enriching the barren soil of Sharlayan and helping resolve the island's food shortage. If we assume that Ahldbhar travelled to Ala Mhigo, then it's possible that there were four other Archons who lead other group(s) of people elsewhere. If there's a connection between the original Archons and the Twelve, then that might explain why there's a collective awareness about them in all the Eorzean nations arising from a common origin point, with certain members of the Twelve being viewed as 'patron deities' for their respective areas (Halone for Ishgard, Llymlaen for Limsa, Nophica for Gridania, Nald'Thal for Belah'dia, and Rhalgr for Ala Mhigo). Worship in each of these areas does seem to predate the original founding of the associated city-states, however (Halone supposedly appeared to Thordan I in a vision, for example, which caused him to lead his people northwest from the Shroud to create modern day Ishgard - EE v.1 p.149).

I don't know enough about all the individual members of the original Twelve Archons to know if such a connection could possibly exist, though. There's a Hatching Tide minion (Motley Egg) that makes an off-hand reference to an Archon named Radcliffe the Red from the Sixth Umbral Era, but his depiction doesn't look like he would have any relation to the Twelve. And given that the Sanctum of the Twelve was originally built during the Age of Endless Frost (i.e. Fifth Umbral Era post Calamity of Ice), so they were probably viewed as deities even earlier than this.

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If you're looking for the 'title' origins of the Convocation members other than Azem, the inspiration likely comes from FFXII's 'Scions of Light', whose counterparts ('Scions of Darkness') are the 13 Lucavi Demons of the Zodiac. Why that specific naming convention was used is beyond me, however. Perhaps there'll be a Void/Allag tie-in to that eventually.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

If you're looking for the 'title' origins of the Convocation members other than Azem, the inspiration likely comes from FFXII's 'Scions of Light', whose counterparts ('Scions of Darkness') are the 13 Lucavi Demons of the Zodiac. Why that specific naming convention was used is beyond me, however. Perhaps there'll be a Void/Allag tie-in to that eventually.

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Oh, LOVELY.

Then that brings it right back around to

https://youtu.be/KreCsxi-nwc

Ivalace, again.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

If you're looking for the 'title' origins of the Convocation members other than Azem, the inspiration likely comes from FFXII's 'Scions of Light', whose counterparts ('Scions of Darkness') are the 13 Lucavi Demons of the Zodiac. Why that specific naming convention was used is beyond me, however. Perhaps there'll be a Void/Allag tie-in to that eventually.

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The ARR team was actually made of people from the teams for the Ivalice games. In fact, the first big-boy Ascian to get named--Lahabrea--turned up after they joined, so we're probably just looking at them going 'hey we have these names lying around, let's use them for these villains'; as we've mentioned, there's a hojillion reasons to land on twelve or thirteen as a good number of figures. The one addition to that was Elidibus, who was a completely unrelated character from a different Ivalice game. All the non-Elidibuses had a connected astrological sign that remained consistent when we saw their soul crystals in 5.3, but that's basically it in terms of connections.

It is not important that they are from Ivalice games. If it was, then they would've used that connection either of the two times we went there, instead of deliberately dodging the Ivalice canon and not mentioning a single Ascian either time. In fact, they had a perfect chance in the 5.x patches; the Leo summon in XII was Hashmal, so both sides of it were present in the exact same patch, and it was not commented on at all.

EDIT: And for what it's worth, the Ascians' names are mostly gibberish that doesn't translate to any real language, nor do they adhere specifically to any ancient language's pronunciation. For example, while you could plausibly parse 'Emet-Selch' and 'Fandaniel' as Hebrew if you tried hard enough, some others like 'Mitron' actually can't be written in Hebrew at all. It's hard to tell if Elidibus is an exception, because his name is plausible Sumerian, but the translation (something about birds, I think) doesn't connect to the FFXIV or FFT characters with that name.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Other than there being twelve of them, there is really no connection whatsoever.

The Knights Twelve are very likely inspired by real-world history and legend, namely the legendary Twelve Peers (Paladins) of Charlemagne, just as Ishgard as a whole draws much inspiration from medieval France.

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Definitely no connection to the twelve as deities. The closest would be that they all take Halone as their patron Deity. I never saw the Heavenguard as anything but a homage to the Knighs of Round from FFVII, which I believe are inspired by the Twelve Peers.

I just want to point out that the Knights of the Round are composed of 13 members. Not 12