On the one hand, it does feel like a glaring omission that some jobs got specific gear made for them while others don't. OTOH, it does seem niche at best especially considering the gear will be outgrown anyway.
That said it does seem like it is addressing several issues that might be better addressed separately, or are already accounted for.
I'm not against the idea of AF-lite sets for xpac jobs across the levels on principle, but I do think it might be a hard sell. And that the issue is more that the equivalents were supposed to be endgame gear and that xpac jobs start at a point where that level is no longer endgame. So while it makes sense to make i90/130/370/400 gear for xpac jobs, it also makes sens to...not do that.
- the Bias of certain Jobs in gear design: that could just be addressed by well, better gear design, we have sets that predate those jobs but still fit their aesthetics to a Tee. All the devs have to do here is to keep in mind that (for example) not every caster looks like a cultist or witch and not every tank is clad in armor form head to toe
- Model reuse/availability: As the post above said it might be better to make unlocked versions of said gear, but the problem is that it seems to be a very rare option, only the Sky Pirate, Sky Rat (despite being simialr looking to the point of redundancy) and most of the Shisui gear got that treatment so far.
- Lack of gear for that range: I mean, the MSQ should already give you gear, but that does seem more like a stopgap since its one use. OTOH if you did have 1 job capped, that means you do have the means to gear the rest as well, even if they're a different role. Also not helping is that bar BLU, they start at a later level and thus necessitate that you have another job and poetics access already at the point where you can unlock it. Even those starting at 30 have this quality due to a MSQ gate. The difference seems to be the amount of effort you have to exert for relevant gear, which seems to be another issue worth discussion.
That said I have to admit that unless the gear is dyeable or very uniquely colored like the i90 MNK gear then its gonna have a very niche place in my glamour wardrobe at best.
Could we get "mid-level" relic gear added for newer jobs?
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12-03-2020, 02:41 AMMorningstar1337
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12-03-2020, 03:38 PMIscahI don't think it's a secret I'm framing it as a glamour request, given that I thought I was kicking off a discussion about what potential designs could be used if it was implemented, not defending the concept itself!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eloah
And while I did say "relic gear" in the title, it's more like shorthand for "repurposing existing designs to be used as a functional equivalent to relic gear". It seems on par with going back to add gunblades and chakrams to all the Lv60-70 dungeons when those jobs were implemented, which happens routinely - it falls within the levelling range of those jobs, so equivalent gear is added for them.
As for just fully unrestricting gear sets like they did for the Sky Pirate sets, sure, I'd prefer that too - but I feel like that just isn't going to happen for everything. It seems clear to me from the way they approach recycled gear designs that there are some designs that they're happy to "share around" and give to a different class each time they appear, and some designs that are strictly role-based and won't ever vary. Even shared designs tend to stick between only going between healers/DPS for lighter designs and DPS/tank for heavier, rarely crossing over all three roles (though there are occasional exceptions).
The Dravanian designs, for example, have appeared three times now (Lv55 Orthodox, Lv60 Dravanian, Lv64 crafted) and have gone to the same roles each time. So have the World of Darkness designs (Lv50 Demon, Lv70 crafted, Lv79 Forgiven). The mage robes are very "magey", the tank armour is "knightly" and the DPS gear suits a lightweight physical fighter. If you went to someone who has never played an RPG in their life and showed them pictures of those outfits, they would be able to identify the character archetypes that would wear them.
The Sky Pirate sets have no such affinity to their roles, and that - I believe - made them much better candidates for being freed up as replicas.
But even if, as I assume, they are unlikely to free up the whole set of Dravanian designs, the more targeted scenario of giving only the DPS set to only red mage would be a different level of consideration. It's not letting tanks wear the robes or mages wear the heavy armour, it's just saying this one outfit would work for this specific job, and there's an opening to make that available.
All that said, I do honestly think there is a gameplay benefit to implementing these equal-to-relic sets, and I'm pretty sure that's what started me off thinking about the glamour potential. I didn't set off thinking "how can I wedge in a glamour request?" but seeing as there is a gear gap that needs filling, then it's a missed opportunity to not fill it with glamour.
It's certainly a stopgap, but it still is a gap that could do with a stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morningstar1337
From my own recent experience I got a character through Stormblood recently - mainly playing AST/DNC with DNC being his main story class. At Lv70, other classes would (or at least can) get free Lv70 gear prior to the Ala Mhigo dungeon, but if I wanted to be equally prepared then I had to go buy that for myself.
And even after clearing, you can't buy a whole gearset-worth of Scaevan gear with 2000 poetics, let alone two, so for AST I had the relic gear to fill in the gaps until I could save up more. I couldn't do that for DNC, even if I made it my priority for gearing.
The MSQ does eventually give you one full set of i360 poetics gear - from memory: accessories immediately, weapon at the end of 5.1 and left-side gear not until the end of 5.2. Until then, you're at a disadvantage.
I would imagine if they hypothetically did this, it would follow the same variations as the relic gear it is matching: undyeable i90, dyeable i210, antiquated i290 with Anemos upgrade (boo hiss).Quote:
Originally Posted by Morningstar1337
And yeah, unique patterns are another opportunity - like the dancer version of the Thavnairian set having a different pattern to the standard version. Which they sort of had to do, because it was a bit of a letdown using gear that was already freely available to be used for the job. -
12-03-2020, 06:31 PMUltimatecalibur
I think it is fair to point out that the starting level 70 gear was actually the the Arahat gear and Crimson Lotus weapons from the Ala Mhigo Dungeon. The i290 Antiquated gear was a very minor upgrade between the i288 Valerian gear and the i300 Arahat gear. DNC and GNB both received Crimson Lotus weapons so there was no actual need for an i290 relic set.
From the looks of it they may already be planning to do what you want for the new jobs in 6.0, at least for level 80. Those new jobs will likely be getting i430 repurposed Weathered "Relic" gear sets from Grenoldt as entry level 80 gear.
The "Chemist" healer is likely going to get versions of at least one if not two of the Alchemist sets. -
12-03-2020, 06:37 PMlinayarI'm not so sure about that. While the role quest and MSQ are required to get to your level 80 job quest, getting the gear itself is not really part of that as I recall. So they may just skip that part again for 6.0 jobs and only have level 70 and level 90 gears for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
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12-03-2020, 08:12 PMUltimatecaliburUnlocking the gear shop is part of the MSQ (You only need to complete the Role quest and have a level 80 job of that role to gain access to that jobs gear). The only reason most people fail to pick up their i430 set is because they complete the quest at 79 and fail to return when they hit 80 and can pick up the gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by linayar
I suspect that the new jobs are getting i430 gear because of how they did entry level cap item distribution this time compared to the rest:- 2.0 - i50/i55 Job quest relic gear. Wanderer's Palace (level 50 dungeon) has i55 gear as well and is unlocked with a level 47 quest. No gear drops in Castrum Meridianum or Preatorum. DRK, AST and MCH are post 2.55 MSQ so have access to i130 gear from when you get them.
- 3.0 - i148 from Great Gubal Libary (level 59/60 dungeon) or NQ i150 purchased from Azys Lla (HQ was timelocked and required mostly completing the zone before access). No gear drops in Aetherochemical research facility.
- 4.0 - i288 from Castrum Abania (level 69/70 dungeon) with i290 Job quest rewards. Ala Mhigo drop i300 gear including weapons.
- 5.0 - i430 gear distribution unlocked by MSQ. Amaurot (and other level 80 dungeons) only drop i430 Accessories. Mt. Gulg is 68/69 with i418 gear.
New jobs lacking an i430 gear set is going to cause a lot of trouble for new players trying to use the new jobs to complete the MSQ. -
12-03-2020, 08:35 PMIscahI don't think the Arhat gear is at all fair to propose as "entry-level Lv70 gear" because while it would have been the good gear at the time of its release, you are entirely at the whim of loot RNG as to whether the piece you need ever drops. You could run the Lv70 dungeons ten times over and come out with nothing for your class. It's not comparable to a full set of gear given for free.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
Even for the levelling dungeons, bad RNG can be awful. Not that long ago I got into my mind that I would do "a few" runs of Bardam's Mettle to get the tank coat and gloves. I ended up having to run it the maximum twelve times because I kept either getting no tank gear from chests, or the one piece that dropped was invariably the free piece I'd received at the end of the previous run.
You're talking as if we've seen signs that they're preparing to do this. While it's certainly what I'm asking for, and I think it would be particularly glaring if Grenoldt can't produce something for you at that point, I wouldn't say it specifically looks like they're going to. I hope they do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
Depends on the aesthetic they go for. I would peg the Dark Divinity / Ramie Robe of Healiing as a likely pick (or at least something I'd be glamouring onto) a more "magical potion" themed apothecary, though of course that would be boring recycling of an outfit they'd already have access to. Alchemist gear would certainly be nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
I'm not sure that's possible to do. You have to go complete your Lv80 role quest and return to Grenoldt with the broken crystal to give him the inspiration he needs, at which point you can progress the MSQ but he also immediately offers to craft gear for you. That's also the quest where the MSQ level goes up to Lv80 so it's a few varieties of impossible to not be there at a point where you're eligible to collect gear for at least one class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
Possibly you could still miss it if you skim over everything an NPC ever tells you, but it's not for lack of being there at the right time. -
12-03-2020, 09:05 PMlinayarSo, you have i415 level 78 vendor gears and i418 Mt. Gulg gears, which are enough to do Amaurot. Amaurot rewards i430 accessories and you will have augmented tomestone of revelation gears (earned via poetics, which could've been earned along the way) afterward. That should be enough to progress through the MSQ without having left-sided i430 gears.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
You might still be right with what they'll do, but the situation doesn't necessarily warrant it. -
12-03-2020, 11:15 PMMorningstar1337
One thing popped up when I noticed the TEA weapons seem to have unfamiliar names I did some digging and found up that the TEA weapons are actually unique for the post HW jobs. Different name and models and all. I do think they should at least reused those models for more accessible gear for those jobs.
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12-04-2020, 04:28 AMUltimatecaliburThe TEA GNB weapon is a recolor of their Mt. Gulg weapon while the DNC one is a recolor of the Shire Glaives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morningstar1337
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12-07-2020, 11:35 PMIscahYeah, it seems to be normal for them to reuse other designs for new jobs' weapons when they revisit an old set.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
Like the Lv70 Silvergrace/Nightsteel weapons are based on the Lv50 ARR relics, but the newer jobs are a hodgepodge from random sets - Rowena's Token planisphere, crafted gun, Anima greatsword, Castrum Abania rapier, Horde katana.
The GC Captain's weapons are also recycled - all the ARR/HW jobs have unique designs but the rapiers and katanas (presumably added later) are just recoloured copies of dungeon gear.