The echo and Hydaelyn's contact

I thought our dream in the opening sequence included the starshower overhead? If so then potentially that's what awakens us.

Though personally I've been figuring that my characters simply saw the starshower from 1.0 and were awakened to the Echo then, even though they didn't get caught up in the following events.

Frankly the real confusing thing from the intro (Which may have increased importance now) is the sort of mini sun flying around. Lahabrea appears from it (Or at least before it), and it grants you the power to defeat him. Later on when you get your crystal it's also seen far above Hydaelyn, and you fly into it to end that cutscene.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Frankly the real confusing thing from the intro (Which may have increased importance now) is the sort of mini sun flying around. Lahabrea appears from it (Or at least before it), and it grants you the power to defeat him. Later on when you get your crystal it's also seen far above Hydaelyn, and you fly into it to end that cutscene.

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Thanks for pointing the sun-like light because I agree, right now after 5.3 it could be even more relevant. First, I have to say I do not trust Hydaelyn at all, even less after 5.0, but the whole leaving-the-WoL-in-read ever since 3.2 was making me doubt Her way before the revelations began. The fact that Azem was involved in neither Zodiark nor Hydaelyn's summonings make the whole thing even worse, because Azem would not take any side, yet Hydaelyn (aka Venat) still forces us into Her service. With lies, as proven by the murals of the Qitana Ravel.

At that point, we, an innocent adventurer with a noble heart, are shown a light. The light hovers around, and then this vision of Lahabrea appears. To me, right now, and I might be wrong but this is my reading, is as if saying: "You want this light, your light? You must fight the evil Ascian. It will give you the power to stand as his equal. You want your light? The only way is through me." I am combining this interpretation with Eden!Shiva's theme lyrics, or as I like to call her, Hydaeryne.

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Turn the light on
And let her in. Won't you
Turn the light on
Turn the light on
You'll never win 'less you
Turn the light on
Turn the light on
The pain won't end 'till you
Turn the light on
The soul longs for oblivion, oblivion

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Not necessarily. You're given the option to tell your merchant ride in the intro cutscene that it's your first time in Eorzea (or at least the city-state you're visiting), and at several points the game acknowledges whether or not you did participate in 1.x (though you have to have cleared a specific quest to get that), such as Cid remarking you saved Eorzea twice in the ending of A Realm Reborn or Count Edmont telling his children you've bested two legatuses when introducing you to them.

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I mean, if you came from 1.0 and managed to complete certains quest you simply teleported you didn't have a merchant ride.

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Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

Thanks for pointing the sun-like light because I agree, right now after 5.3 it could be even more relevant. First, I have to say I do not trust Hydaelyn at all, even less after 5.0, but the whole leaving-the-WoL-in-read ever since 3.2 was making me doubt Her way before the revelations began. The fact that Azem was involved in neither Zodiark nor Hydaelyn's summonings make the whole thing even worse, because Azem would not take any side, yet Hydaelyn (aka Venat) still forces us into Her service. With lies, as proven by the murals of the Qitana Ravel.

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Except Hydaelyn doesn't force us to do anything. She lends us power, but we don't do anything we wouldn't have without her lent power. She lends us power because she thinks us worthy after seeing our good heart, putting faith in us to continue doing good. Not all Warriors of Light stay on the side of good, though (Saint Ajora); and even if people do stray from her laid out path and disobey her orders as we do in Shadowbringers, she still sees fit to lend us her power.

It's sort of how Emet-Selch complains about Hydaelyn vilifying the Ascians; yes, she does so, but their genocidal (Source-side) / omnicidal (shards) plans would cast them as villains to people who live there anyway. She lies about context to give people incentive, but we'd still do the things we do regardless of whether or not Hydaelyn told us to do them.

It's important to remember that, however duplicitous she may be, Hydaelyn's raison d'etre is protecting extant life from being consumed as Zodiark's fuel for resurrecting the Ancients who died during the Final Days. She literally exists for no other purpose than to restrain Zodiark and in so doing make sure the future belongs to those who live in the here and now, rather than those selfsame lives being used as livestock to bring back those who died aeons ago. While she may be increasingly shady, Hydaelyn is still benevolent to the races of man.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Except Hydaelyn doesn't force us to do anything. She lends us power, but we don't do anything we wouldn't have without her lent power. She lends us power because she thinks us worthy after seeing our good heart, putting faith in us to continue doing good. Not all Warriors of Light stay on the side of good, though (Saint Ajora); and even if people do stray from her laid out path and disobey her orders as we do in Shadowbringers, she still sees fit to lend us her power.

It's sort of how Emet-Selch complains about Hydaelyn vilifying the Ascians; yes, she does so, but their genocidal (Source-side) / omnicidal (shards) plans would cast them as villains to people who live there anyway. She lies about context to give people incentive, but we'd still do the things we do regardless of whether or not Hydaelyn told us to do them.

It's important to remember that, however duplicitous she may be, Hydaelyn's raison d'etre is protecting extant life from being consumed as Zodiark's fuel for resurrecting the Ancients who died during the Final Days. She literally exists for no other purpose than to restrain Zodiark and in so doing make sure the future belongs to those who live in the here and now, rather than those selfsame lives being used as livestock to bring back those who died aeons ago. While she may be increasingly shady, Hydaelyn is still benevolent to the races of man.

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Neither Zodiark and Hydaelyn have full control of those they temper; Fandaniel is proof of it because he was already acting on his own before Elidibus was defeated. They are elder primals and we do not know exactly how much they influence others.

I agree that Hydaelyn is and probably will not be malevolent, but She is not exactly benevolent either. There was no need to try telling a version of the story that would erase the past of the star and automatically make everyone demonize the Ascians. Of course the Rejoinings are bad, but the Ascians were not given the chance to explain, and no one would believe them because Hydaelyn's main argument against them is that they are all liars. That would perpetuate the war instead of bridging the differences.

And yet there is to be seen what happens when we bring the truth of the world to the Source, her domain. That which She has been trying to erase for a very long time. Not to mention we have not had any contact with Her since 3.2. For now, I do not trust She will approve on us having basically being restored to our Convocation seat until proven contrary. And whatever the reason, if end-does-not-justify-the-means applies to the Ascians, that goes for Hydaelyn and Her followers as well. The way I see it, both Hydaelyn and Zodiark are a blight upon the star. Their very existence divides the people and causes discord.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

It's important to remember that, however duplicitous she may be, Hydaelyn's raison d'etre is protecting extant life from being consumed as Zodiark's fuel for resurrecting the Ancients who died during the Final Days. She literally exists for no other purpose than to restrain Zodiark and in so doing make sure the future belongs to those who live in the here and now, rather than those selfsame lives being used as livestock to bring back those who died aeons ago. While she may be increasingly shady, Hydaelyn is still benevolent to the races of man.

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But when Zodiark is gone, what is stopping her from resundering the source, separating out the previous seven rejoinings? This would be a calamity very much like a rejoining and cause death and mayhem for a greater good that continues to take the power away from the people. Remember she is a primal (and we can debate the tempering issue because that hasn't been made 100% clear yet) and will only live to see her ultimate goal take shape--sunder the star into 14 shards so Zodiark doesn't have the fuel to rewrite the laws of reality.

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Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

The fact that Azem was involved in neither Zodiark nor Hydaelyn's summonings...

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While it's been implied, we don't actually know for a fact that Azem refused to participate until we get more information on the exact circumstances of the summoning. We can't disprove that they weren't talked into it sometime after that recorded conversation took place.

I know it's the likely conclusion, but my gut feeling is to tread warily around stating it as fact for now.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

But when Zodiark is gone, what is stopping her from resundering the source, separating out the previous seven rejoinings? ... Remember she is a primal and will only live to see her ultimate goal take shape--sunder the star into 14 shards so Zodiark doesn't have the fuel to rewrite the laws of reality.

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Is this meant to be speculative? We have no reason to be certain that Hydaelyn's specific programming requires Her to sunder the shards, let alone into a preordained number. If She is expected to target Zodiark, and Zodiark no longer exists, then what reason is there to act to limit His power?

I'm more inclined to speculate that the Sundering was a terrible accident in the first place - that Hydaelyn meant to sunder Zodiark alone, but He was bound up in the aether of the world itself and everything was torn apart as an unforeseen side-effect. But having done it, and life now existing in its fourteen reflections, those are now equally precious as the original and should be protected.

Basically, as I interpret it, it's not "the original world should be protected" vs "all fourteen shards should be protected" but to do what is best for all life that exists right now. It's a tragedy that the Sundering happened but also that the rejoinings happened - neither should be repeated or reverted, as both would be catastrophic to those who are currently living in them.

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Fandaniel is proof of it because he was already acting on his own before Elidibus was defeated.

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There's not any proof that Fandaniel was tempered.

In fact if you think about it, it's impossible for any of the Sundered Ascians to be tempered. So far as we know, tempering doesn't persist through death and a dunk in the Lifestream, and all the Sundered Ascians were raised up from shards of their original selves after the Sundering.

And Zodiark, again so far as we know, is extremely dead. He shouldn't be able to temper anyone.

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If She is expected to target Zodiark, and Zodiark no longer exists, then what reason is there to act to limit His power?

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If Zodiark is set to be resurrected, she has reason to sunder the world once again.

Also, I really think there was an alternative reason for the Sundering, something more than just killing Zodiark.

Zoidark isn't dead. He's still alive. He's just not in the Lifestream proper and can't influence it or the Planet anymore. So he needs the Ascians around to do so.

Sundering definetly still works after death. There's a reason Ardbert exists. He's a bit of the Sundered Azem's soul; same as we are. Also, the Sundered Ascians are called Sundered for a reason.

We do know that the Sundered Ascians need to be "raised up" to get their memories back. Given everything we know about the Rift (specifically the Chrysalis), it's very, very likely that is where Zodiark really is. Given that becoming an Ascian involves leaving your body... it's got to be whack. I can't see Zoidark (or the Unsundered Ascians) just letting someone have the power that an Ascian does and not wind up Tempered by Zodiark. The last thing they need is some non-dying individual to take Hydaelyn's side and start wrecking the Ascians plans that way.

It's all but guarantied that we will be getting more info about what Azem did after Zodiark and Hydaelyn were both summoned. We have a very handy crystal of what Emet-Selch remembered of Azem on us as well as a power that can see past events when it is advantageous for us to see them. Azem's Crystal is a Checkov's Gun ready to go off and give us a very fun lore dump.

As far as the Echo goes... If Zodiark can Temper the Convocation... than he should be able to Temper Azem. Even with Azem not wanting to help summon Hydaelyn, I can't see them just letting Zodiark go around demanding aether via killing people. So... I can see Azem having to solve the "don't get Tempered by Zoidark" problem while having a lot of evidence that they would get tempered by Zoidark if they went up against them...