Split Machinist to Gunner and Engineer

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

Fix the issues and see how it progresses before clamoring for that. And just so we are clear lets go over a more intensive list of things people desire..

Opposite Genders for Hrothgar and Viera
Hairstyles for both
Mnk rework
Smn rework
Drk rework
Healer rework
New Healer
New kinds of high end content
Mythic+
Aggro management rework
Trust system expansion
FC content
Glamour system expansion
Inventory expansions
Use for gil

Just to start.

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Change how housing works.
Differentiate the tanks from each other and reestablish individual identities.
Differentiate the healers from each other and reestablish individual identities.
More content for BLU.
End game content for crafters.
etc.

Yeah, there's a real list there.
Though I can understand the request nonetheless. If we're getting two new jobs next expansion, we could get healer and a gunner, and then the 6.0 version of MCH could just be more machine based (or whatever).

First off MCH has the least amount of Skills in the game, not including shallow “upgrades” That stretches for 3 leveling cycles &I think 1-2 short compared to Dancer, so Bloat isn’t MCH issue.

Contrary to popular belief MCH has issues you just don’t hear about them much because everyone thinks it’s better than the 4.0 variant they didn’t bother to level up because the skill spread was poor. MCH major issues isn’t even job identity, nor skill bloat so I have no clue how a segregated Gun-like Job will “solve” MCH current incarnation.

If MCH lost its gadgets and machinery it’ll loose its turret, Ricochet, Guass barrel, it’s arsenal of Bio, Autocross bow, Drill, Air anchor, Wildfire, and Hypercharge from the Aethertransformer to “Engineer” so what’s left....it’s basic rotation, spread shot and maybe flamethrower. Gunner just doesn’t have much potential, it can get Ammo but everyone hates ammo rng rotation....in 4.0 at least. The Flintlock is a machine after all they go together Gun and Gizmo.

If you really wanna talk MCH issues @ me. I’m like that one Viera Scholar dude with the “Make Job not boring again”

I don't disagree with the idea.

The "gun" rotation has so little presence in the kit today that you could make it work like BLM Fire.
Get a stance mechanic during which you use the multitool as the gun. Replacing your base GCDs with stronger ones and Ricochet/GR with stronger versions or keep them. Fail to maintain the stance and you got back to your little shooty. Hypercharge could fill this role.
Problem with that solution is you won't see your main weapon anymore or rarely.

A Gunslinger/Musketeer job also needs to be unique in its own. It could also use guns as RDM, PLD, DRK uses swords (Can also extend it to SAM) or BLM/WHM uses scepters.
Ammos, however, were annoying and ininteresting. In my opinion, it should work like SCH, ammos being required for unique abilities or adding extra effects on those abilities. However is should be either defensive, either offensive, can't have a mix of both.
I'd also love to see a "Mustadio-like" mechanic with aiming. Instead of using regular combos, Gunner would use "Flank Shot", "Leg Shot" to find the target weakspot and prepare a "Headshot" GCD.

Or as a Gunslinder, it could rotate between multiple weapons. Guns don't come in one forms, you could have a gunslinger stance blasting with two guns, a stance using bigger guns to deal colateral damage to other targets, sniper stance, and so on.

Nobody said we couldn't have two jobs using guns as we have many sword users that plays differently.

Not only is a 'Machinist' a classic FF job that I'd be sore to see go, but I don't believe 'gunner' and 'engineer' on their own have enough substance to them to make up full jobs in FFXIV.
Just like how seperate Archer and Bard wouldn't either.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Nobody said we couldn't have two jobs using guns as we have many sword users that plays differently.

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The only time they did a job with two of the same weapons (SCH/SMN) it ended up eventually being a poor choice. And not a very good example having 2 DPS share a weapons design at least their different roles

Even beyond that, I don’t see many Paladins wielding Rapiers, or Samurai wielding Great swords since were taking weapons out of proportions.

It would be a shameful waste of a job slot somthing we are gonna eventually run out of

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Originally Posted by Jirah

The only time they did a job with two of the same weapons (SCH/SMN) it ended up eventually being a poor choice. And not a very good example having 2 DPS share a weapons design at least their different roles

Even beyond that, I don’t see many Paladins wielding Rapiers, or Samurai wielding Great swords since were taking weapons out of proportions.

It would be a shameful waste of a job slot somthing we are gonna eventually run out of

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Nono, I don't mean as SCH/SMN, that is a mistake that should not be repeated.
However you pointed not seeing Paladins wielding Rapieds or Samurai using great sword (With glam DRK can """use""" a big Katana) and that's the same with guns.
There is many different guns, MCH uses one-hand guns but a Gunner could use two guns or a Musket.

And I'm a bit saddened to read that there is not enough Gunner substance.
Rest in peace Mustadio and his gameplay heavily around guns, Barret and his hand that is a machine gun, Laguna and Irvine, Yuna from FFX-2...
Mustadio has aiming abilities.
Barret has big shots. But also new abilities in FF7R.
Irvine is more based around his ammo uses and most ammos are unique and provide different effects.
Yuna has a lot of abilities.



On top of that, a Gunner job could also switch between weapons like stances.

MCH has a lot of substance, we don't even have all the Machinery yet.
The current MCH kit is a good base, the main problem is that it's a bit empty and you can feel it's half the rework as Flamethrower still exists.
Now MCH also summons bot and that can allows a wide path to take.
Gunplay is already weak on MCH anyway!

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Nono, I don't mean as SCH/SMN, that is a mistake that should not be repeated.
However you pointed not seeing Paladins wielding Rapieds or Samurai using great sword (With glam DRK can """use""" a big Katana) and that's the same with guns.
There is many different guns, MCH uses one-hand guns but a Gunner could use two guns or a Musket.

And I'm a bit saddened to read that there is not enough Gunner substance.
Rest in peace Mustadio and his gameplay heavily around guns, Barret and his hand that is a machine gun, Laguna and Irvine, Yuna from FFX-2...
Mustadio has aiming abilities.
Barret has big shots. But also new abilities in FF7R.
Irvine is more based around his ammo uses and most ammos are unique and provide different effects.
Yuna has a lot of abilities.



On top of that, a Gunner job could also switch between weapons like stances.

MCH has a lot of substance, we don't even have all the Machinery yet.
The current MCH kit is a good base, the main problem is that it's a bit empty and you can feel it's half the rework as Flamethrower still exists.
Now MCH also summons bot and that can allows a wide path to take.
Gunplay is already weak on MCH anyway!

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The difference is jobs in every other Final Fantasy have all been far shallower.
White Mage just had healing skills and had no Stone or Assize or Lilies, Black Mage just used elemental spells with no Enochian or Swiftcast or Astral fire, etc. because you would use a party of characters and effectively be combining multiple jobs into your set up.

'Mustadio and his gameplay revolving heavily around guns' is almost completely represented within just the Physical ranged role skills, Leg Graze, etc.
Barret and Irvine simply used attacks that used a gun, this is almost completely represented by Machinist's 1-2-3 combo, with things like Hot shot, Ricochet, Gauss round etc. filling out the gaps. Admittedly the old ammo system gave it more 'gun identity' but there's still not enough there to base an entirely separate job around.

Then you mention how gunner could switch between weapons like stances... so it would be a... machinist... using different machines?

Simply 'shooting a gun' isn't enough of a job identity on it's own, that's WHY Machinist has different... machines.
Machinist IS the Gunner class. Mustadio was a Machinist, Balthier was by design a Machinist and the Machinist class in TZA is just a Gunner in all but name. Machinist=Gunner.
By contrast, all of the 'machines' it uses that aren't guns, actually come from characters that were never called 'Machinist's, Edgar and Prompto specifically.

Adding a 'Gunner' class at this point, would be like adding a 'Ronin' class that uses Katana, but 'in a different way'.

The only viable avenue I see for them to implement another gun-wielding job, is as a Healer, like Chemist.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

By contrast, all of the 'machines' it uses that aren't guns, actually come from characters that were never called 'Machinist's, Edgar and Prompto specifically.

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This is actually incorrect. In the versions of Final Fantasy 6 that assign Job names to the various characters, Edgar's Job is in fact "Machinist". I imagine that's why the Machinist Job in this game uses so many of his tools specifically.

just go full ham on the gadgeteer part of mch and introduce a musketeer class that recycles some of the old abilities. Make rostanstahl the job tutor so that all of it makes sense ingame.

Ya the MCH identity crisis through 3.0 to now has been the issue with MCH.

Developers just could not determine what they wanted it to be though now MCh identity for 5.0 era is that of a Heavy Gun Weapon master now with all their new skills and changes to old skills.