Red Mage: Potential adjustments

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Can we really afford the extra buttons there though? This is another one where I agree more actions could be more interesting, but something that'll always need to be considered for RDM is that despite the simplicity of its ST and AoE rotations, those simple rotations have a comparatively high number of buttons due to the duality of our spells. Extra spells for us don't pose a combat design problem so much as an interface issue.

Certain types of spells would need to be added in pairs, so introducing certain mechanical concepts to the job increases the number of buttons quickly--one of the reasons I (probably unpopularly) don't think we should get Verwater and Verblizzard as new spells separate from what we already have. We got around this sort of problem this expansion by mapping Scorch, Verholy, and Verflare to Jolt, Veraero, and Verthunder, respectively, so that we could afford the extra buttons for Veraero II and Verthunder II.

We could accommodate more spells if we can fit them onto existing buttons, but adding separate buttons would be cumbersome.

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We're at fewer buttons in Shadowbringers than when RDM was introduced (remember that we also dropped six role actions) and still have room for buttons to consolidate or remove – for instance, solving the "Displacement problem" would mean we could remove Engagement, which means 1-2 more buttons right out of the gate depending how it's executed. There's space on my bars, without having to get too clever about consolidation or saying "no more, we're done".

Imagine wanting more from your job and people spit in your face saying “it’s Gud the way it is”

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Imagine wanting more from your job and people spit in your face saying “it’s Gud the way it is”

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People have been saying that to monk players for the past 6 years.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Imagine wanting more from your job and people spit in your face saying “it’s Gud the way it is”

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Peoples aren't exactly saying "it's gud the way it is", it's more "if it ain't broken don't fix it".

RDM can indeed use some new tools, for sure, and could entirely use some more "complexity" added to its kit. But the changes proposed by the OP are just imo only here to remove something from RDM's kit while adding something that is not necessary at all in terms of gameplay.

To describe it a bit better, imagine if I just said "let's remove the aoe dot from mch and the crossbow in overheat. But when in overheat, make it so all of your attacks have a slight aoe effect".
Sure it's a change. But does it benefits machinist ? Not really. And that's what peoples are trying to say, even though not with much dexterity, about the changes proposed by OP.

Red Mage can use improvement. But these are definitely not what could be needed to make the job more "interesting" and "usefull", especially if it involves removing the only two damaging oGCD of the job. :)

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

I also believe some of its issues aren't strictly related to potencies and would be better addressed via alterations to its existing mechanics. You have to know that the "Raise Tax" won't go away (if it ever does) without adjusting our relationship to Verraise.

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I've suggested this before, but all they really need to do is change the Dualcast effect.
Instead of reducing cast times to 0, it should reduce cast times by 5s.
This would have no practical effect on any spells other than Verraise, which will go from 8s to 3s.
As 3s is more than a GCD, then chain Verraising becomes twice as detrimental to their DPS output, not to mention the movement restrictions of a 3s cast time. While they still technically have the ability to chain raise, the very act of doing so would hit their DPS hard enough to warrant raising their potencies. Still not to SMN levels obviously, but enough to make the DPS more viable.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Imagine wanting more from your job and people spit in your face saying “it’s Gud the way it is”

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Imagine opinions.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I've suggested this before, but all they really need to do is change the Dualcast effect.
Instead of reducing cast times to 0, it should reduce cast times by 5s.
This would have no practical effect on any spells other than Verraise, which will go from 8s to 3s.
As 3s is more than a GCD, then chain Verraising becomes twice as detrimental to their DPS output, not to mention the movement restrictions of a 3s cast time. While they still technically have the ability to chain raise, the very act of doing so would hit their DPS hard enough to warrant raising their potencies. Still not to SMN levels obviously, but enough to make the DPS more viable.

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Verraise actually has a 10s cast time, so if Dualcast reduced cast time by 5s it would end up with a 5s cast time. You'd be effectively killing it because you'd be missing out on more than 600 potency per raise.

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Originally Posted by Kalker

Verraise actually has a 10s cast time, so if Dualcast reduced cast time by 5s it would end up with a 5s cast time. You'd be effectively killing it because you'd be missing out on more than 600 potency per raise.

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So reduce cast times by 7s then...

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I've suggested this before, but all they really need to do is change the Dualcast effect.

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There are several alternatives.

For instance, putting Verraise on a charge system. One instant rez every minute or two, with a spare charge at the start of the fight. It stays just slightly ahead of Swiftcast-Rezzes while still limiting the utilitarian aspect enough to justify severely reducing the Raise Tax.
You could also take it a step further and have Verraise share a cooldown/charges with a damage ability, like a strong Black Magic; one where if you spent all the charges on damage then you could match Summoner's potency, at the cost of losing all of your rezzes for the fight.
"But wouldn't everyone just pop them all on damage at the start of a fight and never touch Raise?" Eh, maybe, but you could also include a component like "damage increases as the target's health diminishes" so you're encouraged not to.

Just an idea of course. As you suggested, limiting the cast time with Dualcast instead of removing it would still mean each cast would justify its own damage loss, so that's another functional way to reduce it (though you would admittedly feel much worse when actually deploying it).

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Originally Posted by Kalker

Verraise actually has a 10s cast time

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True, but on the other hand, there's no reason for it to have a 10 sec cast time in the first place. They could just reduce it to 8 sec to standardize it with other rezzes and his suggestion would still work.

As someone only recently truly getting into red mage I figure I'll throw my hat into the ring.

I don't know that I support having another job gauge tacked onto the red mage especially one that would more or less function like bards Apex arrow since that is effectively used at 80-100 gauge instead of the 20 gauge required for it.

For what its worth I too would like to see more restorative white magic abilities added, however I dont find it necessary to throw in a tacky potency increase version of vercure as vercure is already VERy strong considering that red mage is a DPS.

As mentioned with Ancient magic mastery, adding procs to the AOE combo would be a fun addition. I also wish there was An AOE blade combo that Maybe immediately went into scorch or perhaps it would go to Impact (still lvl 66 but maybe a bit of a damage buff) and then scorch and I would like to see Verflare, Verholy and/or Scorch all have a similar AOE style to FOUL from BLM since it works as an effective buster even in the absence of Xenoglossy.

Also as it is I think Dual cast is the best designed part of the job and would hate to see it affected, I would rather they just keeping pushing the Raise MP cost higher than make it so we have to spend swiftcast on it like summoner.

Thats said I appreciate how the Devs addressed what was a miserable AOE set pre Shadowbringers and made it feel more attentive, And I like the slow escalation of the melee combo burst. The Shadowbringers changes show that the Devs are considering how best to express the red mage's power and identity and hopefully as they get more time to put into it we can see the fruits of their labor and it can start to flourish and feel as well designed as Dragoon or Black Mage.