Void Mage - New Job Idea

I mean, lore is important and all that but what are people's thoughts on the job's design? :B
I can't speak for the OP or other people but when I post a job idea, I would rather have people say something about the gameplay and not the lore or image of the job. Mechanics, potency, cooldown and effect lengths, etc.
It kind of just feels like people couldn't be bothered to read the post and just needed to post something. :B

IF you need a suggestion for a lore-fix, how about if the Void Mage's Soul Crystal holds/traps a powerful voidsent the user draws power from instead of just the void? This way, none of the job's skills would have to change and it would explain why the user can summon voidsent so easily, because your voidsent is of a lower hierarchy (voidsent being stronger the lower on the hierarchy they are), summoning weaker/higher-hierarchy voidsent.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

I mean, lore is important and all that but what are people's thoughts on the job's design? :B
I can't speak for the OP or other people but when I post a job idea, I would rather have people say something about the gameplay and not the lore or image of the job. Mechanics, potency, cooldown and effect lengths, etc.

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Getting pretty heavy WoWlock vibes from it. The class never appealed to me, but looking at it there's a few issues.

Concerns

Everything's a GCD, and everything is in some way connected to each other / one of the resource systems. Some people like that, but I'm seeing 2 action bars of actions, 9 of which have some sort of finite duration you have to keep mind of, others having charges to keep mind of, dual juggling resources, etc. This isn't so much a criticism as it is an observation. This job is going to need its own HUD slot otherwise it's all eyes on Bars.

Pets look like glorified DoTs, but Pet (and Mob) AI in general brings with it a host of issues that greatly diminish effectiveness. That is not really a criticism of the job, though.

Without Potency numbers it's difficult to judge the priority system we're looking at, but I'm going to guess it's DoT > Generate Resource > Pets > Corruption > Filler, though I struggle to see any case where you're going to use that Filler that much.

Keep in mind the longest dot is 30s, or 12 GCDs. Just setting up your DoTs is 2 GCDs. Getting your pet out is a GCD. using your 10s Dark Flare to gain Auracite is a GCD. Your fillers reduce the timer by 1 GCD, if you ever get to use it around the Channels.

Another thing - Channels in this game are horrid. They feel horrid. They're more antithetical to Encounter Design than the heavensward Black Mage.

That said there's plenty going for it. Ability interactions are ace, and the DoTs don't feel like the kind of thing that are going to get removed precisely because the other actions are there to build off of them.

There's something to be said for the aesthetic of being a minion overlord, which with Summoner's direction is something we'll never see with them.

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This isn't WoW, story elements and gameplay actually have to make sense.

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Rofl so savage, I love it. Yeah I'd like it to make sense and I'll admit I'm no lore master.

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IF you need a suggestion for a lore-fix, how about if the Void Mage's Soul Crystal holds/traps a powerful voidsent the user draws power from instead of just the void?

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Great idea! (^.^)b

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Getting pretty heavy WoWlock vibes from it.

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Yuup I was a Lock main for many years (primarily Affliction ofc), definitely took some inspiration from that as well as Shadow Priest.

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Everything's a GCD, and everything is in some way connected to each other / one of the resource systems. Some people like that, but I'm seeing 2 action bars of actions, 9 of which have some sort of finite duration you have to keep mind of, others having charges to keep mind of, dual juggling resources, etc. This isn't so much a criticism as it is an observation. This job is going to need its own HUD slot otherwise it's all eyes on Bars.

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Not sure what you mean by everything's a GCD, there are 9 OGCDs and a similar # of actions to SMN, fewer instants and ogcds but shorter cast times. There is a good amount going on yup, dot specs are all about managing timers and they tend to get incredibly boring when nothing needs refreshing because that's all they do. I don't think it's too busy especially with the Oath costs as high as they are (used to be 1 and 2 Auracite instead of 2 and 3), in practice and esp with mechanics it could be. Hm. Making the Oath spells a shorter cast time or even instant could help, as well as increasing the cd and perhaps the effect of Dark Flare (get 2 Auracite every 20s with 2 charges?).

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Pets look like glorified DoTs, but Pet (and Mob) AI in general brings with it a host of issues that greatly diminish effectiveness.

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They are exactly that, and being glorified dots reduces the potential AI issues to a minimum. They're mindless monstrosities after all, just sic 'em on something and blow 'em up when they're about done.

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Without Potency numbers it's difficult to judge the priority system we're looking at, but I'm going to guess it's DoT > Generate Resource > Pets > Corruption > Filler, though I struggle to see any case where you're going to use that Filler that much.

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You're right that is the intention, though keeping resources from capping should probably be more important than dots. Another point which makes me think Oath spells should maybe be easier to use. Filler is filler, it's the least fun part of a job, that's why Degenerate forces dot ticks so you're doing more of what the job is meant to do. There is something to be said for having some relaxing downtime but at least my intention for this job is for it to feel somewhat slow and plodding (without restricting movement too too much) but relentless with its constant barrage of dots both glorified and not.

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Keep in mind the longest dot is 30s, or 12 GCDs. Just setting up your DoTs is 2 GCDs. Getting your pet out is a GCD. using your 10s Dark Flare to gain Auracite is a GCD. Your fillers reduce the timer by 1 GCD, if you ever get to use it around the Channels.

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It is 1 GCD to set up dots (1.5s cast + 1s ogcd) - very important - plus Meltdown which is instant and on a 30s cd so even with Degenerate and Fracture advancing it you won't cast it more than that. Dark Flare is also a short cast which can be used to weave 1 OGCD (like AST). It's another of those things I'd really like to play with and see how it feels to see if it needs tweaking though. Again making pets easier to summon and changing Dark Flare to a 20s cd would help if it's too busy.

I don't know if any job in this game has cast time ogcds but I thought it'd be neat to try out and they'd help with the overall feel of the job.

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Another thing - Channels in this game are horrid. They feel horrid. They're more antithetical to Encounter Design than the heavensward Black Mage.

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Hehe. I thought on this quite a bit because you're absolutely right, they do feel horrid, so here are my thoughts on them with this job:

• They're different from what other jobs have and give a feeling of being rooted which I do want for this job to an extent

• If the time between ticks is shorter than 2.5s they are more efficient than normal 2.5s casts, less punishing to cancel

• There are 3 total channels: One lasts for 1 gcd on a 2 min cd, one lasts 6s on a 1 min cd, and one is for aoe only

• The only spammable channel (for aoe) has another ability to go with it which can be cast instantly while channeling so it doesn't feel as bad

• Veil (ogcd defensive) can be used with all channels to ease the feeling of being rooted

All that said I think Deep Freeze might have too long of a channel, I think I would prefer something closer to 3-4s with an additional channel for single target because there really isn't much in the way of channeling because as you said they're horrid but if they're as short as normal casts they're not so bad.

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Originally Posted by Gula

This isn't WoW, story elements and gameplay actually have to make sense.

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We know, from the lore team themselves, that they are secondary to whatever the developers want to do. They make up lore to fit the changes they make, not the other way around. Lore that amounts to "something ancient or something new" is really all the justification needed. Allag had a method for dealing with Voidsent is hardly surprising given Cloud of Darkness. Maybe something from the New World given that's where Blue Mage hails from and it's completely different from what people expect. Any number of possible justifications. Again, we had a fairly sweeping change not that long ago with the Astral/Umbral switch. Dismissing the idea out of hand because of lore of all things is silly.

Just turning some brainthoughts here, but... since creatures of the Void seek to prey on others to devour their aether, even going so far as to prey on each other, because the Void has no aether of its own, per se; would not wielding void magic become more of a matter of summoning/and or binding a voidsent, thus using them as a battery, of sorts? The way Mhach powered the Void Ark was basically the same principle and application, no?

Ah, cast time abilities. Those threw me off. I see cast times, I think GCD, seeing as only Blue Mage has OGCD casts.

Instead of channeling, I'd suggest just doing longer than average cast times if you want to get the 'rooted to the ground' flavor. Cast time spells have all the same weight and problems that channeled do, but it's A) All or nothing, and B) A little easier to plan around.

Channels, especially those with a cooldown, are notoriously frustrating in a game where windows of opportunity often coincide with random forced movement.

My primary suggestions would be

1. Changing the nature of the filler. The GCD is 2.5 and Server ticks are 3.0. I can see this being a little off kilter. Nothing wrong with Shadowbolt.
2. The DoT reduction from the filler can be repurposed into a separate short CD ability (30-45s) that has a similar function, with a more pronounced effect as it's no longer on not-shadowbolt.
3. The Demonform timer seems unnecessarily short and likely a product of having the comparison from WoW. 10 seconds is an extremely small window of capitalization in FF14. 20-30s is more in line with FF14's pacing, and adjust auracite gain and Summon length accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Sophie_Lo

Just turning some brainthoughts here, but... since creatures of the Void seek to prey on others to devour their aether, even going so far as to prey on each other, because the Void has no aether of its own, per se; would not wielding void magic become more of a matter of summoning/and or binding a voidsent, thus using them as a battery, of sorts? The way Mhach powered the Void Ark was basically the same principle and application, no?

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So basically the forbidden branch of Black mage...

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Originally Posted by Tulzscha

I was under the impression it was Dark aether because the Void Mages from Mhach must have used something, I may be mistaken and all they ever did was use Voidsent. Is Dark aether even a thing in FFXIV? Or are there only Dark versions of the 6 elements? Because it could just do that, combining aether from itself in combination with the environment to make something new. Or hrm... would it be feasible to say they take aether from actual Voidsent? Because they were being used essentially like batteries on the Void Ark.

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So here's the deal, Dark and Light - according to The First and observably true - represent activity and stasis. Aether/magic that is aligned to dark is what you would expect out of a statement like activity, the problem being that the flood of darkness in the thirteenth had the mild consequence of all of the aether being snuffed out by too much activity - burning out, so to speak, or feasted upon by the transforming populace. The only thing that, per-se, has aether in the void is the voidsent themselves. Sort of like how vampires drink blood. The Ancient Sorcerers of Mhach were just ripping open holes in the fabric of reality like the reckless fools they were and reaching out to whatever would respond. Be it a powerful voidsent, or an imp. Voidcalling being in and of itself inherently unpredictable and dangerous as a result.

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Originally Posted by Videra

So here's the deal, Dark and Light - according to The First and observably true - represent activity and stasis. Aether/magic that is aligned to dark is what you would expect out of a statement like activity, the problem being that the flood of darkness in the thirteenth had the mild consequence of all of the aether being snuffed out by too much activity - burning out, so to speak, or feasted upon by the transforming populace. The only thing that, per-se, has aether in the void is the voidsent themselves. Sort of like how vampires drink blood. The Ancient Sorcerers of Mhach were just ripping open holes in the fabric of reality like the reckless fools they were and reaching out to whatever would respond. Be it a powerful voidsent, or an imp. Voidcalling being in and of itself inherently unpredictable and dangerous as a result.

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You can also think of it as Order vs. Entropy.
Umbral/Light aether is stasis and order, which means aether is preserved but inert.
Astral/Dark aether is activity and disorder. Aether is chaotic, and tends towards entropy, ultimately dispersing into space until it's concentration is so low as to not exist.
Voidsent must have 'evolved' to capitalise on astral energy in spite of this tendency towards entropy. Rather than containing and ordering it, they're in constant battle, consuming each other or their aether. The fact that they're always ravenous for this aether shows that they're not very good as storage for it exactly, but that is their goal, to store as much aether as possible because otherwise it will disperse into nothing.

But again, this is literally the Black Mage job quests. So I can't see it being the basis for another caster DPS.

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Originally Posted by Sophie_Lo

Just turning some brainthoughts here, but... since creatures of the Void seek to prey on others to devour their aether, even going so far as to prey on each other, because the Void has no aether of its own, per se; would not wielding void magic become more of a matter of summoning/and or binding a voidsent, thus using them as a battery, of sorts? The way Mhach powered the Void Ark was basically the same principle and application, no?

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This would be what I’d expect too. But they could always come up with another answer that explains it. It really depends on how exactly they want to approach the concept in a hypothetical void mage. Some sort of ancient Mhach or Allag answer is pretty viable