Yoshida-san - What's Your Philosophy for 2.0 Max Level Content?

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Originally Posted by Airget

The bullet points in question caught my eye since I've thought of how they could implement said ideas without ruining the ecosystem of the classes.

With the First part on rare/ex gear what they could do is create materials gained through the same dungeons that allow crafters to create an essence that allows the target to spiritbond/materia the piece of gear. The difference with this however is when you decide to transform your bond with the rare/ex into materia you don't lose the piece of gear but at the same time you can't turn it into materia unless you go through the process of having a crafter add said essence to the gear.

If a crafter happens to fail at adding essence to the rare/ex gear they only lose the materials but also gain a small penalty from attempting to add essence to a piece of gear for a 3-5 mins, the same as a weakness duration.

The idea in mind is to prevent this, if you allow rare/ex gear to turn into materia or meld materia into it, you run into this issue.If the gear is lost then people who have already gotten the gear will want to get it again and those who haven't had the chance to get it yet may miss out on getting it because a greedy person got it in their loot pool. -
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With dungeons I wish they would go back on the idea of actually allowing DoL/DoH into them. Rather then think of it as limiting the party of 8, why don't they just have it where a party can be composed of 8 fighting members adn 2 of DoH/DoL. With those DoH/DoL they can use their knowledge and ability to unlock hidden passages or even find ancient workshops to learn new recipes. While they most likely won't incorporate it into the dungeons we see now I can only hope that they do have some sort of plan to involve DoL/DoH into dungeons. Since when I think of DoL/DoH I think of them as the people who seek the help of others to explore an area because they are unable to fend off the beast in the area. However the reason why they need said fighters by their side is because they have knowledge of the location and wish to analyze what they've heard to find hidden treasure or knowledge.
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Hi Airget,

Some great ideas here. :)

I really like the idea of having a Crafter affect Unique / Untradeable Dungeon / Raid Drops which would then allow a possible Melding to occur. It would certainly be a good way to involve Disciples of the Hand at two points in the process to upgrade and interact with Combat players.

It's also a good point about what happens if U/U Items break, but IMHO, I think allowing U/U Items to break if you fail a Double Meld would be good incentive for players to go through previous content again.

I agree that it may prevent newbies who've never gotten an item in the first place of being displaced (or fighting for a drop that others have already gotten before), but there is a saturation point where really old content is just undesirable (and most everyone who's gotten the drops are done with it) (e.g., Dzemael's drops).

And for sure, I agree, I'd love to see Disciples of the Land get involved somehow in the Max Level Content in some form. Your idea of allowing them to mine/chop/fish in special areas limited by the same system that limits Combat players is cool, but if the dropped Material only was from a Disciple of the Land getting it, what would the incentive be for a DoW / DoM to repeat content after they gain their drops?

It's definitely an interesting problem.

Perhaps, say, Ifrit did drop an "Orihalcum Ore" from the chest after beating it, but at a really low drop rate. But, tying into your idea, Disciples of the Land could also enter Ifrit's Bowl of Embers (separate instance) and have an attempt at a Gathering Challenge which would dramatically increase the drop rate of the Rare Items (like Orihalcum Ore).

At that point it would involve and incentivize both Combat Classes and Gatherers (and the Crafters would be able to help synth the super rare recipes). :)

These are all questions I want answers too, OP. You make some great suggestions to promote longevity as well.

I dont agree with the "good players" and "bads" but he is right about the information being released already. However, I would like to know If Yoshi dose infact intend to make LVLing harder. Personally I belive its way to easy right now. As far as endgame content gose, it is what you make of it. Challanges are precived not recived. Have beaten Ifrit about a thousand times now. The challange IMO comes from within the player, "can I do it faster, take less damage, deal more damage, ect ect?"

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

I dont agree with the "good players" and "bads" but he is right about the information being released already. However, I would like to know If Yoshi dose infact intend to make LVLing harder. Personally I belive its way to easy right now. As far as endgame content gose, it is what you make of it. Challanges are precived not recived. Have beaten Ifrit about a thousand times now. The challange IMO comes from within the player, "can I do it faster, take less damage, deal more damage, ect ect?"

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Hi Ace,

Yes, I'm also curious about how fast players can EXP once 2.0 lands (and the World / All Maps / Creature Layout, etc. are revamped / changed). Yoshida-san did say the current EXP rate was in the hopes of getting new players (that are just joining now) up to max level faster, to be able to enjoy most of the new content available now.

Re: Challenges - Oh certainly there are personal goals you can set and things you want to achieve yourself. As you say, "Can I do this fight faster? Take less damage? etc."

But I think that Yoshida-san and the Combat Design Team can also help add to replayability with some of the suggestions listed in the original post (good ideas from so many forum members).

Designing a System that could possibly tie in all the Primal Fights together for a reason, or creating a set of "Other Primal Items" that might have a great benefit to Disciples of War, Magic, Hand *and* Land, with Rare Material drops being a secondary reward from the current Primal Fights & Dungeons would definitely add longevity and help make it more interesting.

Or better designed Alternate Paths, Alternate Goals within a Dungeon, spawning different NMs, etc. would help as well. Thanks. :)

I would assume there would be some type of seal system still in place or expanded upon in 2.0. Every dev has a hard on for points, tokens and/or currencies at the moment. It's easy to implement and it makes the player feel like they're making progress every time they log in. (or not making progress)

There are still tons of GC ranks they can release so this ties in well, and if all new content rewards seals it will make the player feel like they are making progress even if they are doing something different or helping someone with old content.

They can enforce a level cap restriction on things to keep the content as intended. Naturally, you'll need to make higher level gear scale when downgraded so people don't need to scramble for low level gear causing inventory issues.

For example, the job unlock quests are tuned for difficulty but everyone just gets a 50 to cheese it. If there was a cap of 30ish, it would still be hard later, that goes for every mission and/or BCNM-type fight.

This kind of runs into the issue of when people move on from older content and won't help anyone. (We have this issue now, actually) A system that rewards people that do content they've already done would alleviate some of these issues. A lot of people won't help someone unless they are getting something out of it. I see it all the time. That's not to say everyone is like that, but yeah.

Upgradeable weapons/armor is a good system in place if level caps keep going up. You won't feel like you wasted time getting x gear only for something new to come out that is way better. You could upgrade it, but make it just a little worse than new gear so new gear is still sought after.

Upgrading gear should keep materia attached, too, so you won't have to go through the work again. Of course, they'll probably add more tiers of materia so you'll have to replace it sooner or later but it just makes that piece of gear last longer.

Going by what we have now, I assume he wants to make all content as accessible as possible, but add in something a little extra for the "hardcore" like speed runs, or special conditions that have to be met in order to get something extra/better gear etc.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

I dont agree with the "good players" and "bads" but he is right about the information being released already. However, I would like to know If Yoshi dose infact intend to make LVLing harder. Personally I belive its way to easy right now. As far as endgame content gose, it is what you make of it. Challanges are precived not recived. Have beaten Ifrit about a thousand times now. The challange IMO comes from within the player, "can I do it faster, take less damage, deal more damage, ect ect?"

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>_> lvling has never ever ever been hard...in any game ive ever played ever. Granted I didn't play some of the older MMO's, but lvling is just that...lvling. I mean how hard is it to earn experience points over prolonged periods of time. Something like that isn't supposed to be difficult, just time-consuming. Course needlessly time consuming (korean grindfests) is just a waste of time, not even fun, and promotes more botting than actually playing.

Im a bit confused as to why you think lvling needs to be more difficult, and how you can possibly make it more difficult. Earning xp, no matter how you look at it, is not a hard activity unless you force ppl to fight tooth and nail in high failure rate mob battles just to get 300xp. But at that point your game is likely to die within a couple months.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

I would assume there would be some type of seal system still in place or expanded upon in 2.0. Every dev has a hard on for points, tokens and/or currencies at the moment. It's easy to implement and it makes the player feel like they're making progress every time they log in. (or not making progress)

Upgradeable weapons/armor is a good system in place if level caps keep going up. You won't feel like you wasted time getting x gear only for something new to come out that is way better. You could upgrade it, but make it just a little worse than new gear so new gear is still sought after.

Upgrading gear should keep materia attached, too, so you won't have to go through the work again. Of course, they'll probably add more tiers of materia so you'll have to replace it sooner or later but it just makes that piece of gear last longer.

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Hi Vaer,

Some good thoughts here. :)

I agree and hope we have some sort of long-term goal system, driven by things like you mentioned (special currency, tokens, points). And as I bolded in your quote above, it makes people feel like they're working towards the goal every time they attempt whatever content that's tied into it.

I'd also be glad to have systems that could Upgrade Gear (at least the rare pieces), while still inevitably having newer recipe-driven gear and newer drops that come along.

It's just that so far, the drops are being invalidated quite fast in some cases (like all the Dzemael drops being worthless in the matter of only one patch).

I'd also be interested in hearing if the style of play we're seeing now for Aurum Vale / Cutter's Cry and the drop rates are in line with what Yoshida-san envisions 2.0 to be like. I think that's one key area I'd really like to know about.

@OP

A constructive post that directly targets an actual issue. Good Job.

I have been planning to make a thread that deals with this issue specifically, but Unique Untradeable gear being the more desireable (not the best gear but most sought after) destroys the crafting system in proportion to how easily obtained and how good the untradeable gear is. These two inconsistent and competing gear systems work against each other and essentially make each other irrelevant in degrees.

Every time new Unique Untradeable gear is added, the significance or importance of crafters is diminished. The Devs HAVE to eliminate Unique Untradeable gear or risk making crafters and the materia system completely irrelevant.

Now, dungeons are interesting; but, because they are separated from the game world themselves and usually found in secluded areas (like caves) the danger to Eorzea is seemingly eliminated. Getting some more battles in the actual world itself would be a bonus.

As for Yoshi's philosophy when it comes to MMOs, he has it perfect. The Theme Park reference is essentially the ideal. MMOs incorporate many different types of gameplay that bring together lots of different people. Each mode of gameplay is separate, but linked together with the others. Unique Untradeable gear is an example where the link is severed and the philosophy is broken down.

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Originally Posted by Roaran

@OP

A constructive post that directly targets an actual issue. Good Job.

I have been planning to make a thread that deals with this issue specifically, but Unique Untradeable gear being the more desireable (not the best gear but most sought after) destroys the crafting system in proportion to how easily obtained and how good the untradeable gear is. These two inconsistent and competing gear systems work against each other and essentially make each other irrelevant in degrees.

Every time new Unique Untradeable gear is added, the significance or importance of crafters is diminished. The Devs HAVE to eliminate Unique Untradeable gear or risk making crafters and the materia system completely irrelevant.

Now, dungeons are interesting; but, because they are separated from the game world themselves and usually found in secluded areas (like caves) the danger to Eorzea is seemingly eliminated. Getting some more battles in the actual world itself would be a bonus.

As for Yoshi's philosophy when it comes to MMOs, he has it perfect. The Theme Park reference is essentially the ideal. MMOs incorporate many different types of gameplay that bring together lots of different people. Each mode of gameplay is separate, but linked together with the others. Unique Untradeable gear is an example where the link is severed and the philosophy is broken down.

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Hi Ajax,

Thanks for the great thoughts. :)

I agree having the current Unique / Untradeable style of drops (finished goods, no Materia melding, no interaction / extra steps / upgrading, or even converting, etc.) makes it a closed system that just weighs heavily against the "Crafted vs. Dungeon Rewards (complete item)" argument.

As you say, each time another set of U/U items comes about, it adds to "one side of the scale" (so to speak) of the Crafter involved Items vs. Combat-gained Items.

I think there's room for U/U Gear, but also I hope to see a system added that involves Combat, Crafting & Gathering in some form. Whether there are rare Materials instead of finished goods as drops, or Abjurations which can then be used to upgrade gear with Crafter & Gatherer help, or making U/U Gear convertible with a good chance to drop rarer materia (which can go back into the marketplace), there should be some more inter-dependencies.

For Yoshi P's philosophy, I was hoping for a more in-depth and focused reply beyond the "theme park" idea he mentioned. Specifically in regards to Max Level Content.

I definitely understand (and am happy) to see "theme park" ideas across the entire game (activities for everyone of all levels, Gold Saucer, Chocobo Upgrading, Large Scale Conflicts). But it'd be really nice to know if the style of dungeons and Primal fights we're getting (and the drop rates and ideas behind them (in terms of design, planning, (lack of) puzzles, Speed Runs) is the general philosophy he's hoping for, or is there more?

Thanks~

I'm not asking for ZNM, Sky, SEa, Dynamis. lord help us if we draw comparisons to XI around here, but I'd like to see content on that scale in terms of time it takes to obtain elite gear.

I thin Yoshi is more focused on leveling the play field for casuals and hardcore alike at more people having a fair chance at everything. I think he's done well with how accessible the good gear is right now, and provides a good challenge at the same time. But something needs to be there to drive the core community in my opinion.