PvP in this game is an afterthought and it shows

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

The only known MMORPG deisgn with PvP in mind is the Guild War 2, but do you play that?

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Blade and Soul was build with PVP in mind and centered around Esports PVP. There's even tournaments for it.
Black Desert has PVP at it's core. Open world PVP, once you're level 50 you're free game for anyone to murder you. And there are faction wars and you can declare wars on other guilds and have free reign to kill them on sight with very little repercussions in the open world.

I'm not saying PVP should be at the core of FF design, it's not that type of game. But with such a HUGE playerbase it can't feel like it's designe by an intern that just got hired at Square.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

If a person had a tool to force their skills into the same data packet and align with server

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That doesn't sound realistic due to the volatile nature of data packets, you send so many every second that it's very unlikely. What is possible tho is spamming a button 20 times a second so that it comes out on the earliest tick possible. Also plenty of the tools people use for PVE would work perfectly fine in PVP so I wouldn't be surprised if people were using them.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

It was only fun for the people at the highest skill level.

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There are people that have found the PVP system enjoyable. But I know even top 10 Feast ranked players that stopped playing because of Stormblood changes. There are very high skilled players right now that play it and hate it. The entire PVP sub-forum is proof of that :^)

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Originally Posted by iAxX23

I know there's gonna be a ton of you replying to this with "I've been playing since Season 1 of FEAST, PVP has some small issues but you're overreacting, the PVP system is fine".

No, you have something called Stockholm Syndrome

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I've been playing since Season 1 of The Feast. Already before season 4 ended, we got a sneak preview of how PvP will be in the new expansion/season 5. It was the great PvP overhaul, because in their opinion, the system was too complex, too uninvinting too new players, too many debuffs/buffs to track ~too hardcore.

We didn't have all the information at that point yet, so people stayed optimistic largely (despise the large degree of casualization visible in the videos): "hey just let's try it out, maybe it's fun, it looks like a solid basis to built more stuff on, pvp get's some changes finally - cool".
Up to that point that was the most fun I had in PvP and especially frontline. Spoiler: They didn't really built more customization/skills on it.


There has been a lot of feedback to PvP, especially after those big changes. Players probably hoped it would be a start of a new era.
The only thing we got was:

-A new map replacing the old ones, in the same blue style. (most dislike that style by now, because its been years playing on the same map, while there are other maps already from earlier seasons available; WoW started with 3 arena maps as example -and gets 1-3 new arena maps per expansion)

-The removal of heavy/light medals (asked for since forever, probably a good change, even though it was a noobfilter in s1-s4 because you could take way too many medals and you were 1shot then because of the dmg amplification)

-hud, macro and quickchat updates (some hud options are now worse and less easy to see than before, especially medal overview is tiny while being the most important stat)

-job adjustments and more recently 2-3 more additional skills for more aoe utility/dmg and potions (the aoe skills are not very useful in feast so this is a frontline update tbh, potions benefits players who use them very late when they are almost dead, it creates rng and unfairness just like heavy/light medals did and they scale with healing+ abilities, which makes them a bit overpowered at times, again this seems to be a frontline update// recuperate in Feast was good and smooth to use, we didnt need potions)
Maybe we need a seperation between frontline and feast skills -> customization...

Then there is the lack of general communication which haunts us since years as well. We don't know what their plan is until the day it happens. You don't know if it's time to create a light party team for a light party season for example. It takes time to find a team.
Then you get a season happening after 7 months, and they have to apologize that their seasonal rewards that are given out by a npc (happened every previous season since implementation), can't give them out because they were not finished with the changes. Apparently it would have been ready after 9 months, but the community demanded a season, so it is our fault for asking tbh.

Then they are promoting new frontline maps they released. They are promoting it by cutting off the access to the older maps... A daily roulette that exist out of 1 map is not a roulette.

I think ultimately nobody of the PvP players would have asked for such a big PvP overhaul after S4, you can give feedback and hope that some day something changes into the right direction again. But you know they won't put too many resources in PvP anyway, they are more busy with so many other things. So that is just reality, the PvP could be a lot better and a lot more fun as they already have old system that would make a lot of sense rn. But as long as the community doesn't care about it and just keeps putting it in the meme corner, where I think it does't need to belong (its not that far off other mmo PvP systems, they actually have all the basis/tools necessary) we won't see too many changes.
But yeah, try asking for 1 new The Feast map for years. Try asking for more meaningful customization (like a build, we had warriors able to use "Muse" a MP regeneration skill in the past, when warriors didn't need any MP, it was not a choice to use the remaining useful skills...)
Picture of old customization:
https://i.imgur.com/Z23jC82.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/0x8tKoU.png

They even have some really REALLY cool skills in the game, which they don't allow atm for PvP or just slowly brought them back... after 2-4years.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen.../unknown-5.png

But they made the mistake, making some of these skills weak, as a part of the AoE combo, which is pretty boring and not useful.
They were really high cooldown, instant use skills. They had an impact on the game, because they had an EFFECT/BUFF/DEBUFF and NOT because they did aoe dmg.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...68/unknown.png

Take Tar Pit for DRk, a skill that creates a slowing puddle around the DRK, that selfheals him for the dmg others take within it, sounds like such a fun skill.

Take Sacred Prism for Whitemage, a skill that makes you scream at your teammates to stand in the prism to take 40% reduced physical dmg, big numbers, cause the damage buff of dps player had big numbers too. Now we have temperance, just use it and forget, no counterplay possible.

Take mch and brd ability to give their healer MP as support skill.
Ofc these values would have to be adjusted for the new PvP, but at the moment FUN should be more important than everything else for the developers of this mode. Let us have overpowered skills, let us have new maps.

A bit more job uniqueness wouldn't hurt PvP.

So yeah, after all this time you can stay skeptical, imo it's not worth to spend too much time on PvP as SE aren't doing it either(the developer probably has his hands full cause he has to do it all alone :P ). So just enjoy what you can or play other games.

The pvp system is a mess, I've said it since 2013 and while it has improved, except them going back to 3-way frontlines for some god forsaken reason, there's still a lot of work to do, which they've been mostly shown to be incapable of delivering at this point

But..

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Originally Posted by iAxX23

Making healers so incredibly strong is mind boggling to me, look at any succesful MMO right now that has a functioning PVP system, the healers are generally the weakest, they take more damage, they are more suscetible to CC but they have A LOT of utility and heals. In this game a single DPS will not kill a healer without an LB. They're built like tanks.

There is no fixing this system. I can understand balancing PVE and PVP spells together is a huge challenge, I can accept removing some spells that are available in PVE from PVP or changing them for PVP but absolutely gimping a job and boiling it down to 10 spells is a joke.

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I've yet to find a game where healers being present or not doesn't completely change the balance between fighting groups. It's just what the nature of healing does. In WoW if you have a healer and the opposing team doesn't, outside of big gear deficits between the teams, the team with the healers will win almost assuredly.

The problem isn't that the healers are "too strong" (they've been severely gimped in recent years and it didn't fix anything, made it worse in fact), the problem is that a completely and ridiculously disproportional amount of responsibility is placed on them. Your healer is new and doesn't know what he's doing? Well you lose where as you can get away with having any other role being worse than the rest of the team. THIS is the big design flaw, one that i doubt they will ever address

However the idea that the system isn't fixable is just completely ridiculous

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Originally Posted by Pibz

Your healer is new and doesn't know what he's doing? Well you lose

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That is not a design flaw, it is the flaw of the player queueing into a Ranked PvP mode, when he has no single clue how to use his heals. You read savage guides, you read trial guides, you look up your rotation, you buy bufffood for raid, you get the best in slot gear, all that for PvE - but in PvP everybody doesn't care what his skills do and gets away with it?!

If I see a healer going into ranked PvP, then spamming his damage spells instead of healing his team, no, it is not the system I blame - I am gonna blame the healer for not healing anything than himself (maybe, half of the new healer don't even manage that).

Why is a 3 way frontlines mode bad? Guild Wars 2 does it for Open WorldvsWorldvsWorld PvP too and it was pretty fun. Do you only not like it because the achievements tied to it are only rewarded to the first place? That doesn't make the PvP mode bad dude.
2 way PvP would mean, one side gives up because they are 300 points behind and the other group farmed battle highs, but with 2 groups you can overcome them. PvP already rewards you for doing nothing, don't make it even easier. Already the idea to be able to queue at whatever jobs for frontline is bad, we need players of every role just like in feast.

Just think about the impact of your desired changes first, people demanded so often changes that turned out to be even shittier, only to complain even more then as if they knew it all along. Prominent example would be rank decay for top100, there is no good way to implement decay in ff14 at this point, we are not league of legends or whatever.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

That is not a design flaw

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It's definitely a flaw of the mode if one role holds a disproportionate amount of the responsibility for success, because it devalues the effort of the 3 other people on the team. If you like playing ranged jobs, you pretty much have to accept that no matter how good you are, your skill will not influence your winrate as much as if you were a healer player. Don't make the mistake of focusing only on the person playing healer, it's all about their effect on the rest of the team.

You sit in a queue for 20 minutes, get in a game and lose on the spot because you got unlucky with the healer on your team. You've lost 30 minutes of time with not a lot of agency to influence the outcome on your part. Or maybe you get lucky and you win, but so what? You won more because you got lucky with matchmaking, and less because of your own skill. Either way, it makes for a very unsatisfying experience for 3/4s of the players in the match.

I've never seen a pvp game built around a tank/dps/heal trinity see mainstream success. If you look at the competitive gaming landscape today, the vast majority of them are all about dps focused gameplay loops - fighting games, shooters. Even in genres like mobas or class based hero shooters, any 'healing' classes there are more like glorified supports than pure healers.

Sadly it's not really something you can fix since this is a problem that trinity-style mmos bring upon themselves. Their class system is baked in and they have to shoehorn pvp gameplay into that. If you ask me though, the presence of strong healing in pvp fundamentally does not make for exciting or fun gameplay, its lack of representation in mainstream gaming is proof of that.

HW pvp was pretty neat
Shame it all just got kinda bland in SB/ShB

Yes it is.
FF will never be big on PvP

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Originally Posted by Myon88

It's definitely a flaw of the mode if one role holds a disproportionate amount of the responsibility for success, because it devalues the effort of the 3 other people on the team.

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What a well thought out and logically consistent point of view.(the entire post not just the quoted part)
The only thing that I could add to this is that in most succesful PVP games right now healers are virtually non existant because of the simple fact that the healer job is nowhere near as satisfying to play.

Most PVP games right now have multiple ways of rewarding players for playing but usually it comes down to DURING the game and AFTER it.
After it is mostly just currency, ranking up and getting a new badge, items that sort of stuff which gives you a feeling of progression.
During the game it rewards you with things like long cooldown spells that feel very satisfying to use, being able drop an enemy down from full health to about 15%, comboing someone with a friend and that sort of stuff. Generally as long as you see BIG NUMBERS of deeps your brain reacts to it and it makes you feel good. Now most of these things happens with DPS classes.

If we take a look at XIV PVP healing it's incredibly inconsistent with what the PVE team is doing in the sense that in PVE healers play a huge role to how much damage you can output as a party by doing nearly as much or as much as a tank. Not only is it inconsistent and completely against everything that PVE has taught you so far but they double down on a playstyle that is VERY boring. Topping people off every 5-10 seconds and every so often casting 1 ability to fill someone back up to full is not fun. I know healer players that could easily carry any rag-tag group of bronze playerse to Gold without even trying that hard in half a day but they don't play healer because of how unsatisfying it is. There is virtually no reward during the game and after the game you get a nice rank up and some wolf marks. It feels like grind for the sake of grind.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

Just think about the impact of your desired changes first, people demanded so often changes that turned out to be even shittier

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I think your heart is in the right place but you have to realize the community isn't the one designing the game. The devs look at the proposed changes by the community and then decide what they pick and what they discard. The community will never ever agree on what we should change. You have said it yourself you've been playing since Season 1, I bet you and I have VASTLY different opinions on what PVP should look like but I bet you we could take this thread to 20 pages and we probably wouldn't be in complete agreement but... we will reach consensus on things like job uniqueness and the need for better ways to counterplay/punish. But that is what the developers are supposed to be doing, they're supposed to have meetings on the design of PVP for weeks before they begin implementing something, they're the ones that should be arguing for months on end to reach a consensus on every topic and then implement it. Not us.

I personally think the biggest mistake they made with PVP is not splitting it up enough. For PVE we have several levels of difficulty. We start with Expert Dungeons -> Normal Raiding-> EX Trials -> Savage Raiding -> Ultimate raiding. For PVP we have Frontlines -> Feast.

Imagine if the proposed change for getting more people into EX Trials was to gimp down all the classes to like 10 functionally very similar spells from job to job but aesthetically different. The entire community would be outraged.

I'm surprised they haven't fired the current PVP team.

EDIT: I made an assumption thinking this game has a PVP team, I actually meant the interns that get assigned to work on the PVP of XIV every 8 months during their break from University.