The Resonant and The Echo (5.2 spoilers/Stormblood spoilers)

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I think it's a step too far to assume that the Resonance is a STRONGER form of the Echo, just because Zenos used it to enslave Shinryu. It could well just be that Zenos is much better at handling it than the typical Echo user is. The fact that he believes we could do it as well, is another hint in that direction, considering that we just have the normal Echo.

(Of course, we should also consider that Fordola, who does not have nearly Zenos's level of plot-breaking OP-ness, became a nearly unstoppable combatant until we figured out some hokey trick to disable her abilities that for some reason does not work on regular Echo users... or apparently on Zenos? No one's even considered trying to use the device on him?)

One thing I'm curious about is whether the Echo was truly transplanted, or if it's actually a horrifically, life-wasting method for doing the exact same thing the Starfall illusion does. Like, you can either lethally drain the Aether from a hundred unwilling victims, or you can simulate a bunch of flaming rocks.

Aulus: Why not both?

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Clearly it's not the same as just The Echo. We know that Krile's aether wave/soul patterns were copied, but it was also magnified by all the people burnt up in the other pods. It is a more powerful version, by the process of merging many souls into one. I mean, Krile by no means displays any superhuman feats beyond aether trail sensitivity and reading people's pasts.

I, too, wondered why we didn't get to use the device on Zenos. I can only surmise it was because Urianger tuned it to the "frequency" of Krile's Echo or whatever. It's a really muddy water, honestly. I mean, I think they just wanted to introduce the idea of duty bound items to use between your rotations as a mechanic... Of course, we could conjecture that perhaps since the WoL had no desire to kill Fordola the WoL was unwilling to fight at their fullest, despite the gameplay at the time more or less demanding it. When it came to Zenos we had to up the ante, and at the time it was current you needed a party of 4 for the dungeon, and really, no less than 3 competent players in each role to take on Zenos in Ala Mhigo.

They are clearly different methods with different results. One is a suped up copy, similar to the clones in... of all the comparisons I could use... Pokemon The First Movie. It can be applied to anyone strong enough to survive the procedure. The other is use of a catalyst to unlock a latent, inborn potential. i.e. Only those who would have awakened to their Echo naturally will awakened to it upon seeing the meteors.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I, too, wondered why we didn't get to use the device on Zenos. I can only surmise it was because Urianger tuned it to the "frequency" of Krile's Echo or whatever. It's a really muddy water, honestly. I mean, I think they just wanted to introduce the idea of duty bound items to use between your rotations as a mechanic...

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The duty button was used earlier in the trial against Lakshmi. As for Urianger's device, we don't use it against Zenos because we don't find out that he's a Resonant until moments before he possesses Shinryu, and we haven't actually fought him (or even seen him in person, unless you count Elidibus wearing his body) since then.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I mean, Krile by no means displays any superhuman feats beyond aether trail sensitivity and reading people's pasts.

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Ah, but that's my entire point: Zenos is not Krile. I believe that Zenos received Krile's Echo, and nothing stronger than what she has. However, his ability to USE that Echo far, far exceeds Krile's ability. If the Echo is a computer, Krile is the sort who can barely work a web browser, while Zenos is writing his own applications. They both use the same computer, but Zenos is far more talented.

The sacrificed victims are intended as (yet another) example of Garlean ruthlessness and cruelty. Aulus discovered a way to copy the Echo using a hundred lives, and he (and by extension, Aulus's handlers, especially Zenos) felt that was a small price to pay. The only thing we know for certain is those lives allowed the Echo to be copied. We don't know for certain that they "powered up" the Echo in the process. We can speculate, given that Zenos clearly displays more ability than Krile has - but is that because of the process, or because it is Zenos? I believe the latter.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

The duty button was used earlier in the trial against Lakshmi. As for Urianger's device, we don't use it against Zenos because we don't find out that he's a Resonant until moments before he possesses Shinryu, and we haven't actually fought him (or even seen him in person, unless you count Elidibus wearing his body) since then.

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Doesn't Urianger say he upgraded his device in The Measure of His Reach MSQ so it's effectively always on?

Urianger's device has a hokey working condition when used against Fordola, the person using it cannot know how it works or what it is meant to do as Fordola could read the person using it and dodge appropriately.

Now Zenos has not once displayed this type of sensitivity so I doubt this device will/would've work/ed, let alone Urianger straight up tells us how it works so we cannot use it against such an opponent again anyway.

Now I believe Zenos's resonant is different from Fordola's and I like to believe that Krile was only used for Fordola who seemingly got implanted with a heightened version of Krile's echo. Zenos most likely got his Resonant from a different echo user and judging by things a walker type echo user, he hasn't displayed anything that could correlate to Krile so I'm hesitant to believe he went through again using her.

If the Echo is just a re-awakening of our originally super-charged Ancient souls, the Resonant could just be the super-charging of a soul without anything to do with the Ancients. Or perhaps a straight-up forced version of the Echo, re-awakening the old Ancient power but with some unfortunate side effects due to the unnatural process of awakening.

I'm feeling like the Resonant treatment may have awakened and enhanced a dormant Echo that was already present in Zenos to begin with in light of the recent revelation that he's been having dreams of the last days all his life.

The Garlean physiology's inability to manipulate aether might just prevent ones with the potential from manifesting their Echo normally.

Being a close descendant of an unsundered Ancient likely has some role in that.

That might be why he has two Resonant eyes, though it's also possible he went through the process twice or with a different Echo frame than Krile. I had assumed he had already underwent the procedure since he knew exactly how magnificent it was, when he was putting Fordola on the table.

It'll be interesting to see what comes next in regards to Zenos. I need to finish Summoner to 80 so I can see the scene I've heard about involving Fordola.

I finished the Summoner 80 quest line, and while it didn't reveal anything not already discussed, it was interesting to see that Fordola was aware of how many lives it took to grant her the Resonance. It's worth getting SMN/SCH to 80 if you haven't. Fun chain of CSes.

So I've been thinking about the Resonance and the Echo again as I play through the 2.1~2.55 bit of the MSQ in my Let's Play. The bit where Elidibus says to Minfilia on their first meeting, "If you could master your gift, then there would be no strife between our people. We would be of one mind." He also says that we would see them in their true forms, not the crude approximation that the gift conjures to our sight, in respect to our expectations and perceptions.

It makes me think about how strong Zenos is in the gift, artificially granted or not. He can forcefully take bodies that are vastly different. Do all of his techniques, regardless of if the body can manipulate aether or not, and he can teleport like one too. But he would not be of one mind with them, since he embraced violence for its own sake... Do you suppose this is why the Ascians ignored him during Stormblood, and they did not intercede or even observe the Resonatorium? You'd think with them showing up at almost every major primal incursion, one of them would have come to witness Shinryu at the very least. But no, it wasn't until Zenos was dead that they sought to use his body as a device for their own ends.