Fix AST's Accessibility Issue

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Originally Posted by Marikya

I agree with this so much. AST's old card system was less fishing than now. It's so frustrating when you just can't get that last seal.

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Why can't you get the last seal? Or do you mean you can't get three different seals? I'll mention two things here. The first is it is so rare for me to not get three different seals by the time divination is up. The second is in those rare instances I have to settle with two different seals, i just do it. The difference between two and three seal buffs are not significant enough to hold onto divination in the majority of content.

You're not really fishing for anything with the new system, or at the least it's been reduced as fishing for balance was something like a 17% chance, while the chance for your desired seal is 33%. My math is not the best all, but I'm pretty sure that speaks for itself about which system has you fishing more. The old system simply had more ways to eliminate the rng with spread, redraw, and royal road.

Both royal road and spread are very likely to never return. At least not the way they once were. They might come back with the same name different guise like how minor arcana was changed. Under the new system, I could see royal road doing something like playing the opposite of what's drawn so in the case you draw a melee or ranged card but that respective role is unavailable, the AST can still play the card without penalty.

Basically, they are more likely to nurture the new system before reverting back to the old based on current issues.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

The second is in those rare instances I have to settle with two different seals, i just do it. The difference between two and three seal buffs are not significant enough to hold onto divination in the majority of content.

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This is kind of what I was trying to say earlier in the thread.

If your fishing doesn't work out in the new system, you lose 1% on divination. Maybe 2% if you're phenomenally unlucky. You still get to buff people.

If your fishing didn't work out on the old system, you didn't get to play a card at all.

Now if people want the old system back because it's more interesting - OK. Understandable and relatable. But for those that want it back because they're annoyed at not getting the cards they want... The old system is much harsher when RNG doesn't play nice; going back isn't going to fix it like they want.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

This is kind of what I was trying to say earlier in the thread.

If your fishing doesn't work out in the new system, you lose 1% on divination. Maybe 2% if you're phenomenally unlucky. You still get to buff people.

If your fishing didn't work out on the old system, you didn't get to play a card at all.

Now if people want the old system back because it's more interesting - OK. Understandable and relatable. But for those that want it back because they're annoyed at not getting the cards they want... The old system is much harsher when RNG doesn't play nice; going back isn't going to fix it like they want.

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All I was suggesting is that Royal Road be brought back to recover some of AST's depth of gameplay and decision-making instead of this Seal Fishing Contest with 3 Charges of Redraw. As far as old Royal Road goes, it literally made 1/3rd of those things useless since 150% didn't work out for most cards(except Balance, Spear and Ewer back then?). They can reimplement Royal Road so that AST isn't clogged up by Sleeve Draw. Namely, they could decide on the following for effects:

- All Royal Road effects are AoE, no matter what and can only be applied via Play or Minor Arcana.
- Lunar Seal: Increases Ranged DPS by 2%.
- Solar Seal: Increases Melee DPS by 2%.
- Celestial Seal: Recovers 1000 MP for the entire party.

Now, you may think: "But we only want Lunar and Solar Seals to matter when we Play or Minor Arcana!" But given that AST already has a decent buffing system in place, I didn't want to tack on too much given how we might wind up in the problematic issues we had before with balance in both HW(overbuffing AST) and SB(AST contributing better than WHM, but only because of WHM mechanical oversight).

It's easy to differentiate between Sun and Moon either way for DPS Buffs, and Celestial Seal could definitely go a long ways for AST recovering MP for the raid by a set amount(given it's capped at 10000 anyway). It won't be much, but it can help healers that are still learning for the high-end plus deal with some of AST's MP issues in Dungeons in particular.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

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Oh just to clarify, I think most of your suggestions are pretty reasonable. Just others - in this thread a little bit, and in other threads a lot more - some of the complaints are system-agnostic and will be here no matter what SE does, because they're essentially saying they don't like RNG. But non-RNG buffs are SCH's thing, so no matter what changes come for AST, I doubt RNG will be taken out.

Back a little more on topic. So I agree targeting can be very messy, RR might be one way to address it; overall I do like that your suggestions aren't a total revert that would bring back all the problems of the old system.

Just one specific criticism: 1k mp for the whole party sounds a bit excessive. It might not sound like a lot at first, but when you consider lucid cycles every minute, and the fairly powerful natural MP regen, throwing in another 1k like that could have quite a bit more swing than it sounds like. If something like that was added - honestly, I'd be a lot more comfortable if it went to RDM or physical ranged or similar, so it's not tied to any particular healer...

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Oh just to clarify, I think most of your suggestions are pretty reasonable. Just others - in this thread a little bit, and in other threads a lot more - some of the complaints are system-agnostic and will be here no matter what SE does, because they're essentially saying they don't like RNG. But non-RNG buffs are SCH's thing, so no matter what changes come for AST, I doubt RNG will be taken out.

Back a little more on topic. So I agree targeting can be very messy, RR might be one way to address it; overall I do like that your suggestions aren't a total revert that would bring back all the problems of the old system.

Just one specific criticism: 1k mp for the whole party sounds a bit excessive. It might not sound like a lot at first, but when you consider lucid cycles every minute, and the fairly powerful natural MP regen, throwing in another 1k like that could have quite a bit more swing than it sounds like. If something like that was added - honestly, I'd be a lot more comfortable if it went to RDM or physical ranged or similar, so it's not tied to any particular healer...

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You make a valid point. I wasn't sure if it was a viable way for balance, but AST has been lacking in the MP management department since the other two healers have better management. Especially in regards to N.AST, which needs the extra MP. If 1k MP is that much, they could simply just make it 500 MP since that's what a Aetherflow is for SCH. Though in hindsight, we already have WHM that has a ridiculous amount of MP Management(Infinite MP for 12s, Free GCD Healing, Free Instant Cast, etc.) while SCH has to manage a fairy while on GCD and their Aetherflow which is all oGCD.

My guess is what you're trying to say is that if we go over the top on MP Recovery, we basically nullify an issue Healers SHOULD have by design: Running out of Resources, and on top of that people would prefer AST/SCH since N.AST isn't in the best of spots. It doesn't invalidate AST/WHM, either though, but it would make AST a bit more appealing to the raid crowd by doing that simply because of the DPS that MP can provide for certain jobs(extra Despair for BLM in particular should the stars align, since I think limit on MP for it is 1000).

Edit: Also, thanks for clearing that up for me.

In terms of controller usage, full agreement, current AST is absolutely awful. As in the play button was an idiotic idea, sleeve draw again makes no sense, and the amount of button pressing/holding for one card to play without reward is downright infuriating. 4.0 it wasn't so bad

In terms of accessibility, please no, its already been homogenised as is (which is what SE seems to think accessible means) and it kinda is accessible already from level 30. Sleeve draw has always been a finicky one.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

In terms of controller usage, full agreement, current AST is absolutely awful. As in the play button was an idiotic idea, sleeve draw again makes no sense, and the amount of button pressing/holding for one card to play without reward is downright infuriating. 4.0 it wasn't so bad

In terms of accessibility, please no, its already been homogenised as is (which is what SE seems to think accessible means) and it kinda is accessible already from level 30. Sleeve draw has always been a finicky one.

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Bro, I think you have a different perspective of the term accessibility. What you're thinking of is ability homogenization. What I believe in terms of accessibility is flow. How a job flows helps it become either more accessible to some players or more difficult. Right now, AST is the hardest to access in that regard because it's the only Healer that requires macros to even play efficiently given its state.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Yeah, but using a melee card on a ranged is still a DPS boost. And if you don't get the seals you want, you lose 1 or 2% on the aoe boost, but you still get to buff everyone.

On the old system if you kept drawing boles and ewers, you didn't get any DPS buffs at all.

I'm not saying the old system shouldn't return if that's what people want. It's just something to keep in mind. And there certainly was frustration in the old system about getting undesirable cards too.

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Then why not make the "undesirable" cards more desirable, rather than tossing out the baby with the bathwater? The old card system had a minor flaw, and that could have been remedied without scrapping the whole thing and replacing it with something that I cannot even see the benefit of without a parser...

Bearing in mind that I've only touched AST for a couple of days, for some reason sleeve draw wasn't my main concern.

Main issue has been that the new cards are just no fun. It didn't matter if we used to fish balance spread, I can't remember specifically but iirc you couldn't drop your cards twice in a row without incurring a loss so even in times of bad rng you should've been playing other cards (single balance/arrow, etc.). On top of that you had ewer and bole that had some usage. Even if you only used those anecdotally, the fact that you had the option at all really gave depth to the mechanic and a sense of accomplishment when you used them well. This was all lost and I'm still fishing just as often to boot. Not only that but the AST lore was significantly effed over in the process.

The other issue I have is that noct really lacks an ogcd direct healing skill. I feel like at the very least Neutral sect should just switch your sect completely and not only affect your gcds.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Bro, I think you have a different perspective of the term accessibility. What you're thinking of is ability homogenization. What I believe in terms of accessibility is flow. How a job flows helps it become either more accessible to some players or more difficult. Right now, AST is the hardest to access in that regard because it's the only Healer that requires macros to even play efficiently given its state.

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I believe you misread my post. I said "Its been homogenised as is (which is what SE seems to think accessible means)
That said, I am in complete agreement. Its absurdly difficult to play efficiently atm not to mention a chore, especially on a controller. The play button was one of several mistakes that's caused me to leave it on my main and barley touch on alts.

With flow and accessibility though, a good example is Horoscope. To me it seems like a poor version of earthly star only you dont place it on the floor, and then you have to manually power it up to detonate it on top of it doing no damage.

I barely see anybody using it, even though it can grant a free aoe heal a short time later after powering it...so why go through this faff when it would flow better with a button that just boosts your next aspected helios potency to 400 and be done with it.

That I feel is better job flow and more accessible if I'm understanding you correctly