Back-logging weekly clears

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

The talk about people not “deserving” savage clears. Reminds me of similar responses to my “practice mode” suggestion for savage content so players can experience the fight without much time wasted and constant resets from people randomly dying. Maybe a few weeks after it is out, or even a minor patch later, but anything to improve the PF experience.

As for raids requiring “skill”, my impression is that they are more ping-checks and attention-checks than skill-checks. Many other games, many multiplayer, require skill. But not every one I’ve seen, manage to pad it as well as FFXIV, giving players the illusion that this really is elite. That corresponding attitudes and pretension while clearing it is also part of the requirement.

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If it doesnt require any skill, why isnt everyone clearing it? Why are people struggling with their weekly clears in PF and why dont you just queue up for it using DF whenever you like?

You need to consider that there are different types of skill - so other games might require some different type of skill. FFXIV requires you to basically memorize the fight - and that is indeed a type of skill. Different from a situational awareness that another game might require or very quick reaction of another game.

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

It is not healthy. I do not believe it is good for the game in the long run. Weekly limits are mostly to keep players coming back on a set schedule and keep the game in their minds, dominating their attention. Only to a much lesser extent is it for controlling progression so people don’t get geared in one week and afk. (Though even that can also be viewed negatively as time-wasting in the ultimate form, to buy SE time for development of more content).

And finally, though I sincerely hope that’s not the case, it would be great if people didn’t simply give up trying to consider things from the “lesser viewpoint” as soon as a dominant consensus is reached in view of the matter.

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I know you'll come back with some argument about "Things can still be improved", but I'd still like to mention that its been working fine for 6 years and 9 (11 if we want to count Ultimate) raid-tiers now, so it cant be that unhealthy for the game - seems pretty long-run to me already /shrug.
And as HyoMin already pointed out: This is as much a buisness- as it is a gameplay-descision. After all they want - and need! - you to stay subbed. Because it wouldnt be healthy for the game if the majority of the raid-intrested-population would just unsub after the first few weeks of the new raidtier - a lot of people are doing that already, which is part of the reason why you're having more trouble to find a group if you're late to the party.

I'm completely on board with HyoMin and Vidu on this.
Business decisions aside I think you're missing one important point about savage: it's endgame content specifically designed for the players who actively seek out difficulty, excitement of "dangerous" content and enjoy the requirement for organization, strategy and optimization and regularity.
It's not meant to primarily please people who hop in every now and then when they feel like and tune out for two weeks when they don't but people who want to break their horns on difficult bosses, get beaten over and over again, adjust strategies and practice until they can finally collectively cheer "WE GOT IT!".
That you have one week to clear content before it resets is not only a business decision so players stay subbed it, the limited time also adds a pressure and sense of urgency that is desired by most raiders. Your reward is not only earned by clearing it but by clearing it in a timely manner. The limited time you have to progress before it resets is part of the challenge.

It's possible to clear content with PUGs which is already pretty generous compared to other games where raiding outside of statics/ guilds was something that was strongly discouraged. It takes longer, you will likely run into many [Duty Completion] parties who are not even close to killing the boss for the lack of strategy, dps and awareness, but it's quite possible.
And I think that's enough. You're not being excluded from content, you are merely asked to take the long route since you can't or don't want to play it in the way it was primarily designed for.

But making savage more forgiving and cuddly by adding a back-log for clears (or a "practice mode" you suggested in another thread) will water down the difficulty of savage in a way that is not desired by most raiders. They are doing it for the difficulty and the challenge, it's not something they want to see watered down.

You can play this game in whatever way you prefer and that's a great thing about MMOs. They offer a lot of content for a myriad of people with different priorities and schedules. But not every content is designed for all groups of players. Instead you have different types of content designed with specific people in mind (grinder, raider, lore fans, crafter etc).
If you do not belong to a specific group as in not meeting the requirements SE had in mind for this type of content you get a workaround way to still do it which likely takes longer but at least doesn't exclude you completely.
That's honestly very generous.

Then I'm interested on how people think on another issue, aka. how clearing a later savage raid of the tier means automatic forfeiture of prior savage raid weekly reward.

Is this necessary? Even after you have cleared the raid for the first time? What benefit does it serve but to inconvenience players trying to pug weeklies? (probably some arcane reason of preventing alt exploits or something)

Same with the 2-chest system. It's wonderful for statics, much less for pugs.

SE probably perceives it as fine as there's plenty of content for pugs, so savage content can be structured with different priorities in mind. But as things are atm, "normal" players are trying to engage in savage content, but without a perfect static, it is inefficient and not very fun. Vidu once made a point, that we want to game and not waste our time. The same goes for normal players too. There's shouldn't be a special "zone" that normal players don't have the right to efficiently clear in.

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

SE probably perceives it as fine as there's plenty of content for pugs, so savage content can be structured with different priorities in mind. But as things are atm, "normal" players are trying to engage in savage content, but without a perfect static, it is inefficient and not very fun. Vidu once made a point, that we want to game and not waste our time. The same goes for normal players too. There's shouldn't be a special "zone" that normal players don't have the right to efficiently clear in.

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Just because a person considers themselves to be “a normal player” doesn’t mean that they’re exempt from the time, effort, and organization harder content calls for. You don’t need a “perfect static” to clear Savage—especially not now, when it’s easier than it’s ever been.

The fact still stands that savage is primarily designed with statics in mind.
You can pug content and clear it before next raid tier hits, you have several months to do so. But consider this: pugging has several upsides, e.g. you can hop in/ hop off whenever you feel like it, you are not bound to the expectations and rules of a static and can chose to step it up or down a notch whenever you want, even changing it on a daily basis if you want, you don't have to spent any additional time organizing and coordinating, you can even chose to skip bosses and advance to a later boss right away as long as there is a person out there who cleared it and has an "ID".

Statics, on the other hand, require eight people to set aside a fixed amount of time each week, they require more time and effort spent on coordinating everything and they usually need to advance through all previous bosses to reach their progress boss.
So why exactly should someone who gets all the benefits of pugging content get the exact same benefits of a static aswell without doing what is neccessary for a static just because they consider themselves "normal players"?
It sounds like you want a lot for little effort. Not every content is designed for the same amount of time spent and just because you can't or don't want to spent the additional time tackling endgame content in the way it was primarily designed for doesn't mean you should get the same rewards as people who do.
You DO have a way to clear it.
You may feel like it's not good enough for you, but it works just fine. The advantages statics have are the reward for the time, effort and organization they require.

Edit: This particular idea probably won’t happen, people will still have to take the long route, and it doesn’t really matter anymore.
I still say I put in possibly more effort than a static person, to clear the tier in PF. And you’ll never understand it unless you sat through it physically on a 1-1 timescale.

But there is a specific kind of disappointment, which results from gaming on because you trust the game, trust the developer, trust the content structure etc. to still believe it is “right” to try nicely and all. Even when you have been proven wrong before. But you will be proven wrong again, and it will only be your own fault for stupidly trusting on. And you will deserve all your troubles, as well as the fun made of you.

May someday this game allow us to speak of lighter things. In better circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

Edit: This particular idea probably won’t happen, people will still have to take the long route, and it doesn’t really matter anymore.
I still say I put in possibly more effort than a static person, to clear the tier in PF. And you’ll never understand it unless you sat through it physically on a 1-1 timescale.

But there is a specific kind of disappointment, which results from gaming on because you trust the game, trust the developer, trust the content structure etc. to still believe it is “right” to try nicely and all. Even when you have been proven wrong before. But you will be proven wrong again, and it will only be your own fault for stupidly trusting on. And you will deserve all your troubles, as well as the fun made of you.

May someday this game allow us to speak of lighter things. In better circumstances.

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I'm not quite sure what you're on about here, but maybe you placed your trust expecting the wrong things - because I've trusted that they'll deliver difficult raid-content aimed at statics with max-ilvl rewards every 5-6 months and so far I havent been disappointed.

In regards to the amount of effort someone puts into this: Statics require a different kind of effort than pugging. In the long run you might need to perfect your own gameplay more and endure more terrible groups when going the PF-route, but a static will require you to comitt to a schedudle, to be play the same job/role every week, to maybe go back and clear tiers you dont need to clear anymore (I might not need anything from E3S, but if my static mates do, we'll go and clear it til everyone has their loot), to even finding a static that suits your playstyle. As a static-leader you might even take on the task to keep an eye for everyones gear-progression, look for replacements if someone cant make it etc. etc.
Both ways have their pros and cons - and the effort to organise a static is rewarded with better loot-chances.

At the end of the day you can talk about lighter things already... if you want to, that is... unless by "light things" you mean talking about how even more content caters to the more casual playerbase now...