*Spoilers* Questions about Shadowbringers

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

If you didn't do the raids yet and Black Rose was about to be launched at you, then you were on the path to an even worse 8th umbral calamity future cus no G'raha, CT, Alex, and Omega. So G'raha really, really did that version of the world a solid. It still works, though, since he's from another timeline anyway. In his timeline, you had done the raids. Its headache-inducing... but it works.

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Yeah, it kind of is. Either that, or we had more of a break than it seemed. It was enough for Cid and group to get to Doma to poke at the shield wall again, so maybe we had time to deal with everything?

...Except Cid was involved with all three of the Raids required for this to work out.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Thinking about this...I have no idea when the Crystal Tower arc could take place in the story if you have started Shadowbringers, let alone Alexander and Omega. The exarch actually specifically mentions that the WoL and he hadn't met yet in the timeline when talking to Urianger in the Echo scene, but by all accounts the Garleans should have been using the Black Rose a little after your run-in with Elidizenos. Maybe I have the timing off in my head, but it feels like there wouldn't have been much of a chance for you to go side-questing with the war going on and all. You probably only left the front lines in the current timeline because of the Exarch poking you.

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It definitely doesn't make sense if you stop to think about it, but they're not really trying to make it work - just fill in gaps that shouldn't be there. There is no real version of the story where you met the Exarch before you first met G'raha Tia. The CT storyline happened in post-ARR, regardless of when you did it, and anything else is just the story tying itself in knots so it doesn't have to say the player did something they haven't personally done yet.

This is the slightly odd (but consistent) way that the game handles optional storylines, especially if ongoing characters are involved.

The "canon version" is that those events happened at the point in the story indicated by the quest level and possibly the patch where the quest was introduced. In this case, the Lv50 CT quests take place post-ARR, with Nero fresh from his defeat at the Praetorium and 'out of a job', and I believe the recent destruction of the Isle of Val (as introduced in post-ARR MSQ) was also referenced. Cid is wearing his first outfit that he hasn't worn since early Heavensward.

However, if you skip these optional-but-canon quests, the game will not pretend that you have done them (though you should have). Any future references to their events will have variable dialogue, or be written around in other ways - for example, when Nero re-enters the MSQ storyline in post-Heavensward to propose using Omega, players may have previously interacted with him at the Crystal Tower, or this may be the first time they've seen him since the Praetorium. The story dodges the issue of whether we've met him or not because he doesn't speak to us directly, but introduces himself to the other characters who definitely don't know him. Cid has a variable remark either about not trusting him despite the events at the Crystal Tower (if you did it) or a more generic one about Nero having worked for Gaius (if you didn't do CT - in which case Cid hasn't talked to Nero since the Praetorium either).

Another example I like because it's tangled up in a lot of things is the Binding Coil. MSQ characters are involved, and ignoring it makes the timeline messy.

If you did it at the intended time in post-ARR, it ties in with things going on at that time. You meet Alisaie for the first time since the early events of the game, and Alphinaud is busy setting up the Crystal Braves. At the end of the story, Alisaie departs on a journey (referenced in her Tale from the Dragonsong War) and rejoins you at the end of it in post-Heavensward.

If you skipped it or only partially completed it at the time, when she joins you post-Heavensward in the quest Two Sides of a Coin there are multiple versions of dialogue from both Alphinaud and Alisaie referencing those events - but only as much of it as you have personally completed. If you didn't start the Coil quests at all, she says she hasn't met you since the early game.

And then if you eventually return to play the rest of Coil? It still happens at Lv50, with the characters being their ARR selves regardless of what their 'current self' is up to. If it's still undone after 4.4, Urianger is still standing around at the Waking Sands and participating in the quests despite actually being in a coma at the Rising Stones, because this is an earlier version of him from before that happened. And at the end of it, Alisaie is off on a journey she already got back from.

As I said, it gets messy.

TL;DR: optional events are treated as "not happened yet" until you do them, at which point they had always happened at the designated time in the story where they were written to take place - not at the time when you personally played the quest.

Shadowbringers was written with the assumption that CT happened at its proper time, but is forced to allow for the fact that some players haven't done it - but those variations seem to be added as an afterthought, and aren't supposed to be "equally canon" with the proper sequence of events.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

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Which is why I still think the timeline aspect is the Block Timeline.

In the previous Block of the timeline, it is most likely that CT happened in the intended timeline of 2.X but this new Block created due to the time travel to continue the Timeline with different events is designed to have CT event happen based on when the player choose as part of a ripple effect.

It is like water in a river thus even if a person change the flow of the river it is still the same river. Water may not flow the same way but it is still the same water that flows through the river.

Of course now we can only ask where will this river go to with this change because a part of me still suspect the Calamity has not been avoided but just created events that may lead to something of equal or far worse *cough* a Super God Powered Zenos that consumed both Hydaelyn and Zodiark that goes full Kefka on the World just for that Ultimate battle against WoL *cough*

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

In the previous Block of the timeline, it is most likely that CT happened in the intended timeline of 2.X but this new Block created due to the time travel to continue the Timeline with different events is designed to have CT event happen based on when the player choose as part of a ripple effect.

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No, it doesn't change. We keep having this conversation. That's not how the game handles optional quests.

CT happened in post-ARR. Nothing changes that.

Dialogue in the CT quests, particularly involving Nero, indicates you are in post-ARR regardless of when you do it.

Completing the CT after Shadowbringers then rewatching the cutscene where G'raha previously claimed you hadn't met yet has altered that line. The events of CT have been "slotted in" to the overall story at their appropriate time and have now happened prior to your trip to the First, even if you played them afterwards.

The events of CT are not affected by the changes to the timeline initiated in post-Stormblood because they took place before the timeline split and have not been altered.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

No, it doesn't change. We keep having this conversation. That's not how the game handles optional quests.

CT happened in post-ARR. Nothing changes that.

Dialogue in the CT quests, particularly involving Nero, indicates you are in post-ARR regardless of when you do it.

Completing the CT after Shadowbringers then rewatching the cutscene where G'raha previously claimed you hadn't met yet has altered that line. The events of CT have been "slotted in" to the overall story at their appropriate time and have now happened prior to your trip to the First, even if you played them afterwards.

The events of CT are not affected by the changes to the timeline initiated in post-Stormblood because they took place before the timeline split and have not been altered.

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I am speaking of how the MSQ handle the view of things, Not how CT handle your progress in MSQ.

CT will always be considered in 2.X era but MSQ dialogue is based on progress in the CT thus the MSQ view of the New Timeline is hard lock on how far has been progressed in CT being...

1) New done CT = Not met yet.

2) In Progress CT = He will say he is adventuring with WoL currently.

3) Complete CT = He will say they met already

This changes what Block Timeline the WoL is in being that is #1 is the case then the timeline is a New Timeline that never had CT event happens or have not happened yet, #2 case is a timeline when CT story was only half way done thus G'raha Tia has not yet sealed himself in the Tower but in the future he will eventually, and Case #3 is the new timeline where things progressed as intended and CT happened in 2.X.

If a player start with Case #1 and finish 5.0 then finish CT after, then they are no longer in Case #1 timeline but in Case #3 new timeline where CT did happen in 2.X era and Case #1 becomes a Previous Timeline that happened before something happened before Exarch G'raha Tia Block Timeline.

In a Block Timeline, all possible outcomes happened in one possible Block timeline that previously existed until that Block stopped and a new Block continues where it left of as a New Timeline with events changing in certain areas. In this case Case #1, #2, and #3 still happens but if it is the current Block Timeline or a Previous Block Timeline that happened before is up to the player's view of things.

It is like a cycle that repeat itself in slightly different ways until one Block allow the Cycle/river to reach the intended destination being the current events in MSQ (with the Player's choices taken into consideration as well).

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

I am speaking of how the MSQ handle the view of things, Not how CT handle your progress in MSQ.

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I'm also talking about how MSQ handles it.

Once you have completed CT, there is no ambiguity about when it happened. It happened prior to Shadowbringers, and your character knows G'raha Tia prior to meeting the Exarch.

Your progress in the Crystal Tower storyline permanently alters the details of the MSQ that follows it. But your progress in the MSQ has no effect on the Crystal Tower.

The CT story is never intended to take place at any time other than post-ARR. It cannot. Even if G'raha Tia was a one-shot character who never came back, and all this time business never happened, the CT story is still set in a designated point in the MSQ because it forms part of Cid and Nero's story. It happens prior to their interactions in post-Heavensward and the Omega storyline, even though it's possible to play those first and then do CT afterwards. That just means you saw their interactions out of order - not that you changed the order in which those interactions happened.

The important thing is, the game will not acknowledge those earlier events happening unless the player has seen them. It doesn't change the sequence of events, but it does affect whether people will say at the time if those events happened or not.

All quests are supposed to have happened at the time they became available to you, and the story doesn't actually support "multiple sequences". Early events affect later events, but completing later events first does not have any effect on the early events or when they happened.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

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I know the story does not support Multiple Sequences.

I am talking about how the Block Timeline treats these aspect of "Progress" with them being just a new timelines that have replaced the old Block timeline. It is basically everything you said but in a Block timeline perspective of things.

For example, in One Block timeline the WoL would have done CT in 2.X and Alex in 3.X but Omega in a different timeframe. The game system will always treat Omega in 4.X era but in this Block Timeline perspective of events Omega happened in a later time beyond 4.X. However, by completing Omega, you have basically stopped the Old Block Timeline where Omega happened later and replaced it with a New Block Timeline where Omega happened in 4.X as intended thus now you are in a New Timeline where CT happened in 2.X, Alex happened in 3.X, and Omega in 4.X.

Think of Block timelines as all possible events mixed up in each Different Block that eventually stops at certain points to be replaced with a New Block that has a certain difference in event's placements in time while remaining mostly the same so it can continue building until it reach the intended destination.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

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That's adding complexity and multiple timelines that have not been hinted and do not need to be there. I can't see the point in inventing other timelines where things happen in different orders and then immediately "throwing them out" so we're left with the one timeline that we have already.

The Alexander quests imply that we are on a single timeline, and the instability caused by time travel in that story had to be resolved to keep history on the right course.

Doing CT after Shadowbringers doesn't work. It can't happen then. We're either too busy dying in the Eighth Calamity to go exploring Allagan ruins on our day off from saving the world, or we've escaped the timeline that leads to the dark future - in which case it's "too late" to set up the events of CT that need to happen so G'raha is in the tower in that timeline by the time the Eighth Calamity happens, so he can be let out of it afterwards.

Also, setting CT after Shadowbringers would mean that we have not directly met the G'raha who becomes the Exarch. He met the other version of us in the other timeline after the split, but not "us". From a storytelling perspective, that shouldn't happen.

And as I said before, it affects other characters' continuity. You can't put the Omega story before Crystal Tower for Cid and Nero. You can't have Binding Coil take place after Alisaie joins the Scions in post-Heavenward. You can't interact with Estinien the pre-Heavensward Azure Dragoon any time after starting Heavensward, but the Lv30-50 DRG quest have him there anyway. These events are fixed in time, and you're just stepping back into that part of the story to play them.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

And as I said before, it affects other characters' continuity. You can't put the Omega story before Crystal Tower for Cid and Nero. You can't have Binding Coil take place after Alisaie joins the Scions in post-Heavenward. You can't interact with Estinien the pre-Heavensward Azure Dragoon any time after starting Heavensward, but the Lv30-50 DRG quest have him there anyway. These events are fixed in time, and you're just stepping back into that part of the story to play them.

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you are still not understanding how Block Timeline works.

As I said YES these things will always be set in that Time frame they are made.

For example, in One Block timeline WoL did not do DRG quest but in 2nd Block Timeline the WoL did do the DRG quest.

Now it is a matter which Block Timeline happened First and which one is the WoL currently in.

If Block 1 is the old timeline that stopped and got replaced by Block 2 Timeline then current events is that Block 2 is the Timeline that WoL is in and Block 1 is the old timeline that no longer continues within this Single timeline path.

Block 1 and Block 2 are both part of a Single Timeline but Block 1 was the first Part of the Timeline and ended at a certain point. Block 2 will then begin after Block 1 ended with History being mostly the same until a certain point alters small parts but still continues to the same intended destination that Block 1 intended to reach but could not since it had to be stopped at a certain point.

It is for this reason why the MSQ will always happen as intended no matter the dialogue choices made and no matter how many of the extra content players complete or did not complete because the Variation in the MSQ are all just different Block Timelines within this single Timeline path. It is only a matter of which Block is the WoL in and which are the past Block timelines that have stopped to create this new Block timeline.


but I will stop trying to explain how Block Timeline works now since you do not understand my explanation.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

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It just seems like an incredibly convoluted explanation to come to the same final point. There is one intended timeline with all quests completed, and we reach that timeline by completing all the quests. Things will be askew if we leave earlier quests undone.

The difference is that you seem to be claiming that all versions of the story exist equally, rather than one intended canon storyline and some quirks that only exist because this is an interactive story and they have to cover all their bases when players leave quests undone.

It's more like a jigsaw puzzle. You can leave some pieces out, and a part of the picture is missing. But if you add those pieces in later there's only one place where they can fit.