Tenacity buff suggestion

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Originally Posted by Wilford111

I don't know if I'm being a bad tank or what, but I always meld Tenacity to all my tanks wherever I can.

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The problem with Tenacity, is that you cannot get enough in meld to even make a difference. You are so much better off with Determination, or if you really want it - Tenacity, only because of it's defensive component built in*. I was hoping Tenacity would be good for this expansion, but it's just not. It's a dumbed down version of DET.*

*Fixed

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Originally Posted by Greyhawk

Direct Hit, because of it's defensive component built in.

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Direct hit rate: Affects the rate at which your physical and magic attacks land direct hits, slightly dealing more damage than normal hits. The higher the value, the higher the frequency with which your hits will be direct.

Where in here is the defensive component?

Due to the "damage first" mentality of FFXIV players, Tenacity will likely be ignored until the damage increase it gives is superior to the damage increase of any other secondary stat.

with the amount of cooldowns and natural damage reduction tanks just plain don't need the damage reduction from tenacity for like... anything
It's actually a rather strong stat but if you don't need the damage reduction for anything in particular why not take twice as much damage another stat might give

even if they make direct hit a dps exclusive stat and make tenacity be like 70% of what direct hit would have done in direct hit chance on top of the damage reduction
All that will mean to tanks is the double scaling of crit will bypass it 30% sooner than it would if you could use standard direct hit melds

Honestly as things stand the only way tenacity would be worthwhile is if the damage reduction got high enough that healers could get X% more glares in since healer damage is higher than tank damage to the point that tanks self healing so healers can dps more is a net gain already but players are greedy as hell and the concept of "if i stack enough tenacity the white mage can do 20% more dps while also increasing my own dps a little" would just be completely ignored

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Originally Posted by Nihility

Honestly as things stand the only way tenacity would be worthwhile is if the damage reduction got high enough that healers could get X% more glares in since healer damage is higher than tank damage to the point that tanks self healing so healers can dps more is a net gain already but players are greedy as hell and the concept of "if i stack enough tenacity the white mage can do 20% more dps while also increasing my own dps a little" would just be completely ignored

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It isn't about greed. The amount of tenacity you would have to stack to reach that point may not even be mathematically possible at this time.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

It isn't about greed. The amount of tenacity you would have to stack to reach that point may not even be mathematically possible at this time.

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its not possible. Tenacity's damage reduction does not scale that high. This also ignore the fact that most fights encourage tank swapping so half the fight your tenacity is doing literally nothing while the other guy gets hit. This is ALSO ignoring the fact that a lot of healers healing is also raid damage and other non-tank mechanics that arent affected by tenacity. Good healers have always been able to heal almost entirely through OGCDs in savage content. There is no amount of tenacity short of invulnerability that will make any noticable dent in a healers healing GCDs over a fight.

People like to think that a tenacity tank makes a big difference to healers, but it just doesnt. the scaling is quite low, and even moreso this early in the expac, try again in 5.4+ to have a prayer. And all the points above. Tenacity wont reduce the healing from raid aoes, non-MT mechanics, or when OT, or when healers arent using single target GCDs much in the 1st place. Damage stats help all the time.

There are people who are telling tenacity melds makes their dungeons as easy as never before and that their healers feel the difference.
If this is going to make my runs safer then i am 100% going for it.

For refence, a tank that massively prioritises Tenacity on every armor piece and meld (within the limits of a current tier's gear choices) will take about 8-9% less damage than a tank who does everything they can to avoid it altogether. It depends on the tier of course and sometimes you can't avoid it, but "just under 10%" is a good rough guide to compare Captain Tenacity vs Lieutenant Crit when there's enough gear choices to avoid it vs stack it.

(I don't think there's enough choice in current level 80 gear to be able to get more than about 4-5% difference depending on setup - this will likely change now the 460-470 gear is about to be released).

Tenacity only really makes a difference where a tank is in two types of danger:

- A huge tank buster that hits so hard it might literally oneshot a tank even through a cooldown unless the tank gets more passive mitigation. Tenacity might help it survive with a few HP left.
- A period of massive incoming constant damage that is outdamaging a healer's HPS. Tenacity might slow the incoming damage enough that the healer can cope.

Currently the first one doesnt exist, but the second can kind of exist a little on huge trash pulls when you have low dps AOE and possibly an undergeared healer. Either way whilst it'll help, it's not vital.

HOWEVER - today is day 1 of Savage Eden. Let's see what happens. In Alexander when it was released it was found that the DPS races were so tight every tank had to use strength accessories, stay in DPS stance and healers needed to spend 99% of their time DPSing. Who knows where the designs of Savage Eden will be. We've not seen any major weirdness in the Extreme Primals yet but what happens if damage output on the tanks in Savage is SO HEAVY that a pure DPS-stat choosing tank might not be able to survive. If that's the case, Tenacity will become the stat of choice.

That's unlikely though. History has really shown that big tankbusters requiring well-planned cooldowns are the only major test on a tank's tankiness to date.

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Originally Posted by Magnedeus

Direct hit rate: Affects the rate at which your physical and magic attacks land direct hits, slightly dealing more damage than normal hits. The higher the value, the higher the frequency with which your hits will be direct.

Where in here is the defensive component?

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No, no! Sorry about that! I was thinking one thing and typing another! GAH! :D I meant to say "Tenacity, only because of it's defensive component built in." I didn't finish my sentence and will edit appropriately. ;)

What could make Tenacity more relevant is to make every mitigation scales of it. Parry, Block, even mitigation skills should all have a "potency" with the actual damage reduction being based off Tenacity and Defense/MDefense. On top of that, Tenacity could also increase healing received. And yes, completely avoid Tenacity should make tanks much more fragile than they are right now.

Also, Direct Hit should simply not exists and be fused with Crit. I don't see why we need two stats that "randomly increases damage".