Something about the new Ascian lore

Hydaelyn being willing to completely snuff the Ascians from the pages of history by refusing to reveal their motives and what happened to them is what seals the deal for me. She simply cannot be trusted. She's a Primal. A false deity. A parasite to be cut out so that the reins of history can be firmly placed into the hands of man for better or for worse.

The WoL is a Sundered Ancient. There probably are more of them in the reincarnation cycle. I also can't imagine that Hydaelyn being able to Sunder beings just came out of nowhere. It might even have been necessary to divide Zoidark into something Hydaelyn could actually seal away.

By the time Hydaelyn was summoned, Zodiark had the aether of 75% of the surviving Ancient population. Hydaelyn's starting aether was much, much less then that. At a bare minimum, she could have started with 25% of the Ancient's aether and that's if all the Ancients sacrificed themselves to summon her. Which we know they did not. So Hydaelyn would have started out with much less aether then Zodiark. She would have had to make up that difference somehow. Splitting Zoidark (and the world) into fourteen pecies that she could seal away isn't the worst way to handle the problem. At least it doesn't seem like when Hydaelyn Sunders beings that she kills them.

And we do know the Ancients who summoned Hydaelyn really didn't want any more death to have to happen. At least, deaths that couldn't result in reincarnated souls. That's why they summoned Hydaelyn in the first place. So I can see them summoning Hydaelyn already knowing they were going to be Sundered when she dealt with Zodiark. Even the Ancients who didn't help them summon Hydaelyn and ended up being Sundered would at least not get stuck in Zoidark but end up in the reincarnation cycle. Which would probably be worth it to some people over having to watch even more people have to sacrifice themselves to Zoidark.

The other thing is... why does people knowing about Hydaelyn's role in all this matter? The only reason people end up finding out about her is when the Ascians stat messing with the Shards and the Source and Hydaleyn tries to make sure a Rejoining doesn't happen. Outside of that, she never seems to interact with the people who are alive and doesn't demand they worship her... or demand their aether... or keep them from being reborn...

If there's one thing Hydaelyn could have been said to fail to do, it was that she failed to Sunder Emet-Selch, Lahabrea and Elidibus. I really want to know how those guys managed to not get sundered. 'Cause if they had been Sundered... it's very likely none of this would have happened at all. We would have the Thirteen Shards and the Source just existing without any outside interference. Instead we have three tempered Ancients who are trying to kill everyone to bring about a plan I don't think they even know will work.

Yeah, so you have some more souls being rendered to him - perhaps a willingly enacted sacrifice which some nonetheless could not stomach - vs sundering the entire world, its god and its people, whether or not this kills them - it certainly erases their former existence, though, and greatly enfeebles them. Who is weighing the costs here and determining it's worth it? The sacrifices to bring about Zodiark were by all accounts voluntary and it was in the nature of these beings to sacrifice themselves for a greater cause. It sounds to me more like some other individuals could not handle more of it. That enervation is her power is of course natural given the task sought out. I agree. It's more a question of what the nature of the "problem" to be solved was and whether one deemed it worth "solving". I'm not aware of anything that says there could not be reincarnated souls, though. What's that based on?

Also, it is of little consequence whether she demands worship or not. She already has complete dominance. What does she need it for? Any Primals that arise are usually slain or draw but a slither of her aether, so she has no need for them. By the sounds of it, Zodiark did not constantly demand aether either, and any further sacrifices were to bring back those who originally gave themselves to bring about this restored world.

On that last point, I doubt they would be doing all this on a mere hunch. We see during the fight with Emet-Selch that, towards the end of his first form, he invokes his fallen ancient brethren, and then during the second he calls on the prayer of his fellow Ascians to grant him the might to see through his task.

Lastly, if Banri Oda is right, and the state of sundering has resulted in a natural state of imbalance, who's to say it is even a stable state, with or without the Ascians, as if it is not within man's nature to do evil or set about bringing imbalances? Again, the Ascians simply direct endeavours as suits their agenda, but it's not like the existing races aren't apt to engage in such activites of their own free will or that they could not, like Zenos, gain the power to pose a genuine threat even if not Ascian.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DSCH

Does anyone else think Hythlodaeus may have first proposed the summoning of Hydaelyn(which incidentally appears to be a diminutive of his name)? He seemed to imply that he was removed from the convocation of fourteen for disagreeing with the summoning of Zodiark. He said, "The Convocation of Fourteen-- Well, it was Thirteen at the time-- endeavored to create a will for our star. He also mentioned how his apparent consciousness may have arisen from a stray thought of Emet-selch, perhaps Hythlodaeus will realize the truth.

---

He never said that he was the person who left the Convocation. There was someone who did, which another NPC also reveals in the Hall of Rhetoric, referring to it as unprecedented. I posit that it is probably you, because he suggests as much when he says surely Emet-Selch has seen the hint of "him" in you (the character)... later, Emet-Selch gets a glimpse of you as one of the Ancients, which he thinks is delusion on his part.

His name is just a reference to a character in More's Utopia, which is where they got a lot of their inspiration for the naming conventions of areas in the city, and means dispenser of nonsense - the opposite role he's playing in the FFXIV story, funnily enough.

Keep in mind that Emet is very much biased in favor of Zodiark. There's likely more to the story that will be touched up in the 5.x patches or 6.0.

It basically boiled down to what life should be.

This is fundamental between Zodiark and Hydaelyn.

Zodiark : an immortal society guided by a strong had.

Hydaelyn : mortals free to choose their own path.

To Emet, his way of life was the only way.
To us, mortals cannot be sacrificed for his way, we must protect them and let them live too.

This is infact the very reason Hydaelyn exists.
Emet wanted to fuel Zodiark with mortal lives so his people could always be.
Some of his kind objected, saying they must protect mortal life and let it flourish.

Anyways, your points would have failed.

1. He lived long enough to see conflict exist before and without his meddling. We might be fighting ascian meddling, but it likely wasn't always so. I mean, the city states fighting over cartenau isn't due to ascians.

2. Current humanity could never be like them because it will always be 1/14th their potential until rejoinings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

Hydaelyn being willing to completely snuff the Ascians from the pages of history by refusing to reveal their motives and what happened to them is what seals the deal for me. She simply cannot be trusted. She's a Primal. A false deity. A parasite to be cut out so that the reins of history can be firmly placed into the hands of man for better or for worse.

---

I don't think Hydealyn is evil at all.

We know her will. Her will is in answers.

Walk free. Walk free.

Those who come before, lead those who come after.

The purpose of her was to make immortals into mortals.

Feo Ul even says the beauty of man is to sow for others that they may reap.

That is hydealyn in a nut shell. It was done to protect mortal life from being sacrificed to Zodiark.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

Later Emet-Selch gets a glimpse of you as one of the Ancients, which he thinks is delusion on his part.

---

Actually he knew the whole time we were of his race.

In Raktika I think it was, he says

"Not that you would remember" when talking about Amourat.

This conversation hints way before that you are of his race.

Basically, he knew the whole time you were a piece, I mean, how would he not? Part of his job was to elevate pieces to become ascians.

That is why he gave us so much leeway and sought to understand us. He already knew us.

And that is why he is dissappointed when ourselves rejoined 7 times cannot hold the light.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

Hydaelyn being willing to completely snuff the Ascians from the pages of history by refusing to reveal their motives and what happened to them is what seals the deal for me. She simply cannot be trusted. She's a Primal. A false deity. A parasite to be cut out so that the reins of history can be firmly placed into the hands of man for better or for worse.

---

That is, of course, you ignore the MULTIPLE TIMES ANY OF THE ASCIANS COULD HAVE TOLD US!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

...yes, but then take it a step further, give her the ability (enervation) to sunder and shatter Zodiark, the world itself and all souls in it, and then shroud the act in secrecy, and it grows a little more dubious as to how much of a "20" it really is, seeing their people and world shattered. So unless there was a really compelling reason for it, the question of whether the benefit warranted the cost remains - and to the Ascians, the answer is decidedly in the negative.

---

The whole "Final Days" incident seems like a compelling reason to sunder the star, if it meant not having reality-warping beings at risk of causing an apocalypse from mass hysteria.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

...yes, but then take it a step further, give her the ability (enervation) to sunder and shatter Zodiark, the world itself and all souls in it, and then shroud the act in secrecy, and it grows a little more dubious as to how much of a "20" it really is, seeing their people and world shattered. So unless there was a really compelling reason for it, the question of whether the benefit warranted the cost remains - and to the Ascians, the answer is decidedly in the negative.

---

We just have way to less information for that. Maybe it was in the will of the ones that summoned her that wanted the shattering because they saw that how powerful their race is, its too dangerous? We just know the view of those that summoned Zodiark, those that were ready to sacrifice big amounts of their own race so that he can solve their problems. We also know that only one member (probably us) was against his summoning but at the end Hydaelyn had so many followers that she somehow was as strong as Zodiark (and he somehow lost one halo) and was able to defeat him. So even if Emet goes around and sees himself as the right one, they choose sacrifice as their way to end the conflict (but dont accept the sacrifice and kinda are living in the past just like Nidhogg did) while others saw that this was wrong, especially since they wanted to kill the new generation (which were still with complete souls!) just to get their old ones back..I doubt that those who summoned Hydaelyn did this with the same view and belief than those who summoned Zodiark.

Hydaelyn herself probably did not tell the whole truth (she only did lie about who came first, she was telling the truth about Zodiark threating life since he should get all the new souls as sacrifice) because she needed us and maybe was afraid that we would listen to the Ascians. We have people like Urianger that lied more than once to get to his end and yet he is no bad guy. Hydealyn lied to us once, otherwise her actions are good. Why should one action destroy the rest of it?

The Ascians and Emet in turn have done more bad than good to us and seemingly even went against the wishes of some of their own race. I feel bad for him but he was wrong and like the OP stated, alot of the conflict only was started thanks to them and seemingly their race was not even that great either since Zodiark only was summoned when their city was under attack..they seemingly still just discussed helping the rest of the cities when those were also under attack..so Alphinaud is quite right, there is not much difference between us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

Hydaelyn being willing to completely snuff the Ascians from the pages of history by refusing to reveal their motives and what happened to them is what seals the deal for me. She simply cannot be trusted. She's a Primal. A false deity. A parasite to be cut out so that the reins of history can be firmly placed into the hands of man for better or for worse.

---

What if she simply does not know their whole motives? She was summoned as the enemy of Zodiark and those that follow him. We dont know if she even knows why that was the case. Maybe she even got told the story wrongly. In the end she did not tell us the full truth but the Ascians themselves proved that they could not be allowed to live. I mean why is it bad to kill them off? These guys have for thousands of years tried to rejoin the shard, made one shard into the void and succeeded with a couple of rejoining too which killed billions of people and other life..but Hydealyn wanting to take them out is bad? No matter what happens to them, their plans (even worse now that they even want to sacrifice the source people too) are so bad that we can never allow them to happen, so why should she care..at the same time she never went to us and said: Kill those guys, only after new conflict arised with them did she try to tell us more. Otherwise she mostly left us to our own devise, told us to "feel, think, hear" for ourself" and used her all to defend us from certain death. And as others pointed out we see her view in "answers" and she does not force anyone to pray to her, heck most people dont even know she exists..You completely ignore all the good she had done and accuse her of being evil just because she once told us a different version of the story..while completely ignoring that we also only saw the view of the Ascians who claim to be tempered to Zodiark..and ignoring that we already have people from their race who were against them too..heck it was their own race that summoned Hydealyn.

Why does man need to kill her to have their own history? Our history only was ever possible thanks to her. Us not being rejoined and destroyed was only thanks to her and her WoL..its funny when man wants history without a god/primal but only lives thanks to that. And Hydealyn mostly even leaves us to ourselves. She only saves a small few like us or Kryle. In times of peace or rebuilt between the calamities she is not that active either. Heck barely anyone even knows that she exits..so without Ascians trying to stir things up, man already has the reign over their history.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Milea

Actually he knew the whole time we were of his race.


That is why he gave us so much leeway and sought to understand us. He already knew us.

And that is why he is dissappointed when ourselves rejoined 7 times cannot hold the light.

---

Yes he knows it from the beginning that we are at least from his race and at the end he even for a short time sees that we may have been even a close friend of his but does not want to believe that. So here we have another Ascian that is not outright telling us the truth. Not only that he knew about our soul but does not truly say it (just these small hints) but he was ready for us to become monsters if we dont win the test. Heck I wonder if he ever believed that we would be able to do it. He was angry that we destroyed his plan but seemingly got a new one, so I think he hoped that we would get all the light and then turn into the worst of the lightwardens..killing us with that and starting the rejoining again.