New Caster Role Actions?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And then Verraise and Vercure off RDM and Devotion and Summon Titan Egi off SMN? No Role but tanks have maximum eHP-increasing actions. Leave that level of capacity, and BLM, alone, unless you're willing to take whatever balancing penalties that unique survivability advantage would cost you and would be as willing to see your own job lose ownership over its tools.

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I think it's more a matter of just wanting casters in general to have an "Oh Shit" button for when the boss is about to explode the arena and kill all of the squishies. I would assume in this hypothetical that BLM would be compensated.

Granting, with Titan-Egi getting reworked from tanking to providing survivability to the caster, the only job that really has that issue is...

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Would be nice if RDM had some survival utility they didn't have to sacrifice a gcd to use. But *shrug*

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... Yeah, that. In which case, just give RDM a tool of its own ("En Garde", anyone?), leave Manaward where it is and we don't have to worry about SMN becoming a caster tank.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Replace Drain with Necrogenesis (Bloodbath, but for magic damage; shorter and stronger).

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To be honest, I'd rather just give BLM a buffed version of Drain. If Manaward already provides BLM with snap survivability then it shouldn't use another cooldown to heal back up.
I'm totally fine with BLM sacrificing DPS in order to keep itself alive -- that's kinda the point of it being the archetypal squishy mage.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

I think it's more a matter of just wanting casters in general to have an "Oh Shit" button for when the boss is about to explode the arena and kill all of the squishies.

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But literally no role but Tanks has this at present. Neither Second Wind nor Bloodbath increase maximum eHP. They cannot protect against one-shots. We'd just end up with "kill all the squishies... except casters". That's why I mentioned Necrogenesis. That has balanced precedent. An HP shield does not.

On the offhand chance you'd actually use Titan Egi just to survive something as SMN, you'd still be losing not only your RDM to burst raid damage, but also your Bard, Machinist, Dancer, DRG, your NIN if the damage is magical, and likely your SAM and MNK as well. RDM would not be the only DPS without significant max eHP increase; that is literally unique to BLM at present. So don't try to pass that off as a Caster-vs-Everyone-Else disparity. It is a tool unique to ONE job. Only two (soon three, though clunky and costly) other DPS even have any personal anti-magic mitigation whatsoever.

For the record, I was only offering my interpretation of Valavaern's intent, not advocating it. In fact, I partly rebutted it -- "leave Manaward alone, give RDM its own mitigation tool."
I mean of all casters, you'd think the one to get a damage barrier would be the one that constantly runs into most enemies' blood circles.

Not to undercut your point, but to my knowledge all of the jobs you listed except DRG and RDM have either Oh Shit buttons or mitigation effects of their own (DRG uniquely being the one to have personal vulnerability).

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Not to undercut your point, but to my knowledge all of the jobs you listed except DRG and RDM have either Oh Shit buttons or mitigation effects of their own (DRG uniquely being the one to have personal vulnerability).

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DRG, RDM, MCH, BRD, and DNC have no self-mitigation. NIN has no self-mitigation against 99% of raid-wide attacks. MNK and SAM each have merely 10% mitigation.
Remember, you must already give up your DPS stance and survive initially to receive the added mitigation of Riddle of Earth -- and then you have to continue to give up your DPS stance just to benefit from it, along with likely your ability to maintain GL, the core of your entire means of maintaining decent damage; that's hardly an "Oh Shit" button.

More specifically...

• 10% mitigation is FAR less valuable than a 30% HP shield. One's as good as a DRK's self-cast TBN; the other is unlikely ever to save you from an attack would otherwise kill you.
• The closest equivalent to BLM's Manaward is Ninja's Shadeshift, except Shadeshift only affects Physical Damage and thus almost never affects any damage except standing in a boss's cleave, and for does so 33% less often and for 33% less HP. BLM's Manaward is uniquely powerful.

On the whole... BLM is the only job with a decent "Oh Shit" button. And although Mana Wall was a far better fit for its purposes (as I "not moving; next hit against me doesn't matter anyways; 100% mitigation, suckers") than Mana Wall, it probably needs to be that strong to serve any BLM-related purpose.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

For the record, I was only offering my interpretation of Valavaern's intent, not advocating it. In fact, I partly rebutted it -- "leave Manaward alone, give RDM its own mitigation tool."
I mean of all casters, you'd think the one to get a damage barrier would be the one that constantly runs into most enemies' blood circles.

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That's fair, I guess, though I've literally never felt safer on a caster, including a healer, than when on RDM as is. Heck, though I understand the compaints, I've never even had an issue with Disengage. Just jump into Suzaku's hole slightly and fully enter Kefka's/Omega's hitbox before using it and you're always safe. I've always used it quite nearly on CD, and have yet to yeet myself off an edge even once.

No, I suspect that the only thing that's going to help in those situations is a mid-range instant-cast like Reprise that doesn't break melee combos, while the melee combos themselves cost slightly less -- allowing us to bank a Reprisal into among the melee combo if we get forced out of melee range briefly. That, or you've already used Reprise beforehand to time your melee combo to a period where no such AoE would appear... In either case, the solution isn't to give a RDM a survival cooldown strong enough mistakes or else you essentially end up giving a cooldown mean only to cheese certain mechanics, for what decent RDM would make those mistakes to begin with?

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

SAM and MNK's 10% mitigation skills can be kept up for large periods.

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No, they can't. That's absurd.
SAM's lasts for 3 seconds and only lasts until the next hit taken. How is that a large period?
MNK's cannot be kept up, period, without sacrificing its DPS stance.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

And as he also points out, Melee have higher HP as a whole than Casters, which highlights a particular weakness of RDM, the hybrid melee-caster.

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Only by around 7% to 10%, though. That's a far cry from the ~19% HP increase that a Monk or SAM would need to contest a Manaward with their respective, far more costly or far less reliable mitigation.

While I understand that they may want RDM to seem more of the willowy, speedy caster, and thus its HP ought to be of no impact, I could also understand their being brought up to the HP/ilvl of, say, Ninja.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

I don't want it to be a RDM exclusive because I think that defensive utility like that should be shared among the role, like second wind is.

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But, again, Second Wind is approximately a 15% heal on a 120-second cooldown. Manaward is a 30% shield on a 90-second cooldown. Manaward is vastly superior in every way.
Why should one role have a skill that uniquely helps to survive against one-shots and in a single ability is practically stronger than any of the survival tools among all other roles but tanks, combined? Why? Why would you create something unbalanced? Am I crazy here for playing more than just casters, and thus looking more broadly than at their role alone, or something?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

DRG, RDM, MCH, BRD, and DNC have no self-mitigation. NIN has no self-mitigation against 99% of raid-wide attacks.

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Just a small nitpick going into 5.0.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...51/unknown.png

Melee DPS do also typically have higher HP/Defense [mages get the higher MDefense but still have much lower HP. Mages will also not be able to meld VIT in 5.0]

I'm still on the line where I really just want to keep our current defensive tools. Erase at the moment is a bit underwhelming to most people so a change to it to make it a sort of second wind for the self or a party member would really keep it relevant to most people. [Id take it as is though.] 300 Potency heal every 90 seconds with a cleanse for the casters vs a 500 potency heal every 120 seconds for the Physical DPS [TBH the CD could be lower]. Apocastasis, I'd really like to keep as well, but it doesn't really need any adjustments to be useful and its % mitigation could honestly be reduced if its an issue.

I don't want it to be a RDM exclusive because I think that defensive utility like that should be shared among the role, like second wind is.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

More specifically...

• 10% mitigation is FAR less valuable than a 30% HP shield. One's as good as a DRK's self-cast TBN; the other is unlikely ever to save you from an attack would otherwise kill you.
• The closest equivalent to BLM's Manaward is Ninja's Shadeshift, except Shadeshift only affects Physical Damage and thus almost never affects any damage except standing in a boss's cleave, and for does so 33% less often and for 33% less HP. BLM's Manaward is uniquely powerful.

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SAM and MNK's 10% mitigation skills can be kept up for large periods, which is a substantial EHP buff over the entire encounter rather than small periods (and even with giving up DPS to maintain it, it's no different from the expected scenario with Titan-Egi).
BRD, MCH and DNC, meanwhile, can extend similar 10% mitigation effects to the entire party through Troubadour, Tactician and Shield Samba, which can often be the difference between life and death for a lot of AoEs.
As Zyneste pointed out, NIN's Shade Shift no longer is limited to Physical effects in ShB, giving the same effective EHP as Manaward.

And as he also points out, Melee have higher HP as a whole than Casters, which highlights a particular weakness of RDM, the hybrid melee-caster.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

I don't want it to be a RDM exclusive because I think that defensive utility like that should be shared among the role, like second wind is.

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I think whatever defensive skill RDM has should play to its particular strengths and weaknesses. That is to say, should play into the fact that it regularly enters melee range of the target for brief periods, which is the period where it's most vulnerable but also playing the most as another role.