White Mage - Skill Acquisition Changes

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Originally Posted by Kyeria

I feel like everyone is reading into this as a "White Mage is too weak at low levels and it's unfair from a design standpoint" Which wasn't really the point of this thread. I'm not comparing the three healers in terms of raw power, or whose heals is better, or who has a better AoE pull at what level.

My complaint isn't a "Buff vs Nerf" situation, it's an ( Imo ) White Mage feels incomplete at lower levels because their job mechanics are gated behind high levels. The job, again just doesn't feel rewarding or fun to play until around Lv.60+ Where you start to gain access to the mechanics and abilities they interact with and actually make them fun. Sure, if your idea of fun and engaging gameplay as a Healer is who can spam a single button ( Stone ) fastest and most effectively then I'm sure we can argue that White Mage feels complete, but this isn't why I flock to healers. I understand that DPS is necessary at some point, but unlocking my "Next mindless spam" ability isn't what I really constitute as engaging or fun.

Astrologian has its cards and sects early on, Scholar has access to their pets, shields and micromanagement tools early on and White Mage has to wait to actively engage in their unique job mechanics until Lv.60+
And again, this was really just my opinion, but White Mage just feels bland to me until this content is unlocked. Where with the other two Healers felt more complete and more fun to play at lower levels.

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All jobs feel incomplete before they are complete. Especially when you've already taken another job from the same role to max level. That is actually the reason why WHM feels so incomplete to you now, and the reason why those of us who leveled WHM pre-SB have the mindset that we do.

WHM 60+ gets a MP management skill, a single target shield, a upgrade to Stone, a schite trait, and a nearly needless ogcd AoE heal. It plays nearly the same at level 70 as it does @60. AST and SCH however, are on much different playing fields with the abilities they get 60-70.

WHM actually shines in lower level content in comparison to the other healers. I won't even take the other two into 50/60 or leveling roulette. Giving them access to their ogcds including Assize earlier could potentially have them causing even more damage then DPS jobs. Sorry you feel it's bland, but many feel that way about WHM even at max level. Especially in comparison to AST and SCH.

Most jobs feel incomplete before they're complete because that's the definition of incomplete, but I get your point that WHM may feel particularly incomplete. Personally the only time I feel bothered by WHM skill acquisition is when I unfortunately get Aurum Vale, because lacking Medica 2 in that dungeon feels really bad compared to Aspected Helios and Whispering Dawn, but that is a minor gripe. With 5.0 incoming I think all healers will have their skill acquisition levels moved around, even if just a bit. WHM actually benefited a lot from the skill pruning coming into 4.0 due to getting Stone II super super early. Maybe we'll see they move the sub 50 skills a bit more, who knows. I don't think they'll ever change 50+ skill acquisition though.

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Originally Posted by Kyeria

I feel like everyone is reading into this as a "White Mage is too weak at low levels and it's unfair from a design standpoint" Which wasn't really the point of this thread. I'm not comparing the three healers in terms of raw power, or whose heals is better, or who has a better AoE pull at what level.

My complaint isn't a "Buff vs Nerf" situation, it's an ( Imo ) White Mage feels incomplete at lower levels because their job mechanics are gated behind high levels. The job, again just doesn't feel rewarding or fun to play until around Lv.60+ Where you start to gain access to the mechanics and abilities they interact with and actually make them fun. Sure, if your idea of fun and engaging gameplay as a Healer is who can spam a single button ( Stone ) fastest and most effectively then I'm sure we can argue that White Mage feels complete, but this isn't why I flock to healers. I understand that DPS is necessary at some point, but unlocking my "Next mindless spam" ability isn't what I really constitute as engaging or fun.

Astrologian has its cards and sects early on, Scholar has access to their pets, shields and micromanagement tools early on and White Mage has to wait to actively engage in their unique job mechanics until Lv.60+
And again, this was really just my opinion, but White Mage just feels bland to me until this content is unlocked. Where with the other two Healers felt more complete and more fun to play at lower levels.

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I think I see where the confusion lies. Since you mentioned comparable skills, my guess is most people thought you were requesting a "reshuffle" of their skills, but what you want is an identity from the beginning. The only issue there, is that "pure healer" is their identity, or current identity. They are the only Healer class/job you can start out as, and are designed to ease people into the role. In many ways, besides the obvious one, WHM is the healer equivalent of BLM, offering no utility, but massive bursts of power, in their case heals. But whereas BLM has a gimmick and various forms of tools at its disposal, WHM has... Lilies, yeah. Ironically a lot of what you are trying to get across has been said, and many believe 5.0 will remedy the issue. Wait until May and the ability display, to get an idea, it might fix things for you and many others.

Or become the best healer in the game... Lily, HA! I kid.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

I think I see where the confusion lies. Since you mentioned comparable skills, my guess is most people thought you were requesting a "reshuffle" of their skills, but what you want is an identity from the beginning. The only issue there, is that "pure healer" is their identity, or current identity. They are the only Healer class/job you can start out as, and are designed to ease people into the role. In many ways, besides the obvious one, WHM is the healer equivalent of BLM, offering no utility, but massive bursts of power, in their case heals. But whereas BLM has a gimmick and various forms of tools at its disposal, WHM has... Lilies, yeah. Ironically a lot of what you are trying to get across has been said, and many believe 5.0 will remedy the issue. Wait until May and the ability display, to get an idea, it might fix things for you and many others.

Or become the best healer in the game... Lily, HA! I kid.

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I'm being pretty optimistic about the healer changes in 5.0 and it's what I'm hoping for the most. Thankfully, I can still go back and play Astrologian if the changes don't address my core issues with White Mage, but it would be really nice to have a second healer to fall back on as I'm enjoying it for the most part. They just need to release information fassster! :P

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Originally Posted by Eloah

I think I see where the confusion lies. Since you mentioned comparable skills, my guess is most people thought you were requesting a "reshuffle" of their skills, but what you want is an identity from the beginning. The only issue there, is that "pure healer" is their identity, or current identity. They are the only Healer class/job you can start out as, and are designed to ease people into the role. In many ways, besides the obvious one, WHM is the healer equivalent of BLM, offering no utility, but massive bursts of power, in their case heals. But whereas BLM has a gimmick and various forms of tools at its disposal, WHM has... Lilies, yeah. Ironically a lot of what you are trying to get across has been said, and many believe 5.0 will remedy the issue. Wait until May and the ability display, to get an idea, it might fix things for you and many others.

Or become the best healer in the game... Lily, HA! I kid.

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At least they acknowledged WHM needed a complete rework, which is why 4.5 only saw enmity changes and assize buffed as a band aid fix. Maybe Soken as a WHM main can help in testing the changes for them to make sure they work this time, not like lilies or worse yet secret of the lily 2. WHM heals right now despite lilies, not because of them which should not be the case. They also know the demand for another healer, so balancing them should be key as I'm sure there will be even more outrage if no new healer in 6.0 because WHM is still lagging behind SCH and AST and working to balance them yet again.

Of course... if needed there would be a lore reason to not play WHM should the nerf hammer come and it be pruned to nothing. Why would a WHM become a villain? Reason for a job change right there in becoming the Warrior of Darkness. Of course seeing as a lot of WHM power comes from the light, we could very well see nice buffs moving to a world full of light to draw on. It is after all an Ampadori job so seeing what they based it on could yield great stuff 70 to 80.

WHM just really needs it's own identity gimmick, and have that start around lvl 30 like cards/fairies.

It's identity is its a healer, that's all tgere is to it.
When the other healers were introduced, they had to do everything WHM could, and more.

It's not like BLM has the same problem being the defacto caster dps, it has AF/UI, Enochian and Umbral hearts. Meanwhile lilies and stacks come in far too late and dont actually DO anything.

A lot of why WHM feels inconsistent from start to finish is:

1) It's own design philosophy has seen severe neglect as the approach around encounters and healing in general has evolved.
2) Many of WHM's traits and skills have been nerfed, removed or given away leaving huge gaps in what used to be a cohesive skill set.

If you're able to find an original list of all skills and traits that launched with WHM in 2.0, I'd bet about half of those skills are gone/are now role skills. You wouldn't recognize the class. WHM is very much a shell of it's former self these days and with as much as they've taken from it, they've done almost nothing to build it back up.

WHM was a shiny wooden bridge that was slowly left to rot against the elements and as time passed, people salvaged all the good bits of wood from it for other projects. After awhile, they tried to patch it up a bit to keep the bridge functional, but the new pieces are oddly shaped, they don't really fit the gaps well, and they're of a lesser quality than it's original construction.

It's no wonder some people find the class weird when crossing it for the first time. They never saw it in its original state.

Back when I could swift-cast stoneskin 2 between trash mob pulls White Mage felt great. It felt like a complete concept. Now trying to figure out when Plenary Indulgence has a purpose is not the same. I hope they actually breathe some life back into the class.

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

Back when I could swift-cast stoneskin 2 between trash mob pulls White Mage felt great. It felt like a complete concept. Now trying to figure out when Plenary Indulgence has a purpose is not the same. I hope they actually breathe some life back into the class.

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I remember in things like the 24 man when there wasn't a WHM present, and the other healers (SCH/AST) and hell even PLD were individually casting Stoneskin on the party/alliances before pulling the boss. Good times!

This is technically an issue for everyjob.
New job have their core kit available early whereas older job don't (most of the time)

For healer, we could follow with
SCH get Bane and Miasma2 at 30 and 46, WHM get Holy at 45 or Aero3 at 58 and AST get Gravity at 52 (somehow Synastry is apparently more useful at lv 50)

Giving healer access to AoE early on would make dungeon much more enjoyable. SCH being obviously golden with Bane super early.

Perhaps giving both WHM and AST a weaker version of their current AoE toolkit would help. I know leveling ARR dungeon as WHM and AST was really dull. Tab dot tab dot tab dot

However, this issue isn't only with healer.
Mainly, dps not having access to essential tools to unlock their potential in dungeon makes some job very good (usually the new one, and BLM) and some other utterly inneficient (old job, but BLM)

Regarding core rotation:
DRG learn their second melee combo at lv50, Blood of the Dragon makes no sens until lv58 and Mirage Dive+Nastrond, the core of SB new mechanic, are learned litterally 2 lv before the end.
BLM is fine in ARR, but the whole HW skill order makes no sens. FireIV being the bread of butter of BLM, it's learned super late. lv 52 should have been Enochan and 54 FireIV.
NIN + DRG : Throwing Daguer + Piercing Talon are learned at lv15, when they are not needed, while DoomSpike and DeathBlossom are learned at lv 40-42, when they would be needed in the very first dungeon. (or second at least)

Those are just a few things, but the level at which these spells are learned are pretty flawed. You want every job to have access to their core kit early on. Then you add up fluff skills to spice up and complexify the rotation as they level up.
not the other way around.
Usually newer job don't suffer these issue as their core spells are learned quite early on.
For instance, RDM litterally all his 4 element + jolt and his AoE at lv30 making them enjoyable to play at any level. (And they get their aoe at 18! how nice)


It'd be nice if for ShB, every job get some rework in that regard. So that by lv30 they are functional and have most of the core part of their gameplay available for the player to learn. (1-2 basic combo, AoE, etc)