The Blue Mage Argument at a glance

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkpaw

And have failed to properly balance the roles for two expansions properly. This problem seems to have faded from everyone’s memory since the blue mage.

Ask a machinist how well balanced they’ve been this entire expansion. Or a white mage.

---

Do you understand how many players in the history of MMOs have argued that a game shouldn't add more jobs/classes because the dev team can't balance the current ones? Literally millions.

And they were all wrong.

New jobs bring excitement to a game and get people to resub or sub for the first time. Endgame balance only matters to a tiny hardcore subset.

However, locking people out of content with a new job is going to backfire on Square in a huge way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkpaw

Saying the deep dungeons, eureka, or the gold saucer flopped is a bit of a misnomer. While there was backlash about pagos eureka is mostly enjoyed and successful. Whether you like it or not it would appear the majority of the population is alright with it. Deep dungeons are still played and enjoyed to this day and provide a decent alternative from the usual leveling grind. As for the gold saucer they are consistently trying to reinvigorate that place and add more to it so calling that a flop is inaccurate. Chocobo racing has its niche. While no one can really lords of vermilion the fashion report and the new gate seem quite popular and with the promise of another new gate and “major new content”

---

That's why for those the harshest I ever said was "mostly a flop." Otherwise you'll notice I said "not a flop but not stellar."

In that light your post doesn't make sense because the only one I called an absolute flop was Diadem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrenGarm

Do you understand how many players in the history of MMOs have argued that a game shouldn't add more jobs/classes because the dev team can't balance the current ones? Literally millions.

And they were all wrong.

New jobs bring excitement to a game and get people to resub or sub for the first time. Endgame balance only matters to a tiny hardcore subset.

However, locking people out of content with a new job is going to backfire on Square in a huge way.

---

Yet you counter your own argument. Things get stale real quick if we always get the exact same thing. This is the same tired argument that has been had when we ask. "Why are the patch cycles so predictable?! When are you guys going to try something new to excite and bring new players to the game?! Or bring back players who have left because the content release schedule and the type of content is always the same?" .. they do something different.. "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?! WE DIDNT ASK FOR THIS!! GIVE US WHAT WE WANT!! THIS IS BAD THIS IS HORRIBLE THIS IS GOING TO END THIS GAME (exaggeration but a reasonable one based on some of the forum posts I've read.) blah blah blah." and the fact boils down to the same bloody FACT. I know fact is a scary word in today's society. I'm sorry if the truth and hard facts trigger anyone. The FACT is this. WE DO NOT KNOW!!! -insert sounds of shock and horror- We know implementation which if you actually step back with some reason. You'll see is a damn good idea how they are implementing it as it's a brand new system, it's a brand new type of job that progs completely differently than any other job (which actually should be viewed as something to be excited about despite the POSSIBILITY it all goes horribly wrong.) since there has been a large amount of complaints about it just being dungeon grinding or deep dungeon grinding to level up quickly and it's basically cookie cutter prog on every job. You have no clue more than any one else that blue mage will always be locked out of content.. period. YOU DONT KNOW. It is at implementation. Dead stop that's what we know. You don't know when they are going to raise level caps or by how much or how frequently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

That's why for those the harshest I ever said was "mostly a flop." Otherwise you'll notice I said "not a flop but not stellar."

In that light your post doesn't make sense because the only one I called an absolute flop was Diadem.

---

As for my response to your post. You are correct I misread it. I typed it when I woke up so I am sorry for misquoting you. But even calling them mostly a flop (i'll agree pagos but still they did try to make it better and it's not as horrible now) but deep dungeons are hardly a flop, and i'll also agree the gold saucer isn't stellar. Yes, diadem flopped and the dev team has admitted it and told us they would do better. Their next explorative piece of content was Eureka and I think we can all agree it's much better than what Diadem was. In either iteration of the Diadem. So I will offer an apology to you for misquoting you because that isn't fair to you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkpaw

Yet you counter your own argument. Things get stale real quick if we always get the exact same thing. This is the same tired argument that has been had when we ask. "Why are the patch cycles so predictable?! When are you guys going to try something new to excite and bring new players to the game?! Or bring back players who have left because the content release schedule and the type of content is always the same?" .. they do something different.. "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?! WE DIDNT ASK FOR THIS!! GIVE US WHAT WE WANT!! THIS IS BAD THIS IS HORRIBLE THIS IS GOING TO END THIS GAME (exaggeration but a reasonable one based on some of the forum posts I've read.) blah blah blah." and the fact boils down to the same bloody FACT. I know fact is a scary word in today's society. I'm sorry if the truth and hard facts trigger anyone. The FACT is this. WE DO NOT KNOW!!! -insert sounds of shock and horror- We know implementation which if you actually step back with some reason. You'll see is a damn good idea how they are implementing it as it's a brand new system, it's a brand new type of job that progs completely differently than any other job (which actually should be viewed as something to be excited about despite the POSSIBILITY it all goes horribly wrong.) since there has been a large amount of complaints about it just being dungeon grinding or deep dungeon grinding to level up quickly and it's basically cookie cutter prog on every job. You have no clue more than any one else that blue mage will always be locked out of content.. period. YOU DONT KNOW. It is at implementation. Dead stop that's what we know. You don't know when they are going to raise level caps or by how much or how frequently.

---

Not sure how I counter my own argument. For the record, I've never complained about patch cycles, sameness, or any of that, anywhere. Maybe that was someone else? And maybe those people are happy with BLU? Different players like different things. The fanbase isn't monolithic, as you suggest.

You're entitled to your opinion. However, if you like FFXIV jobs, then there's no reason BLU can't satisfy as a FFXIV-style job. If you don't like them, then why are you even playing the game? That's what it boils down to for me.

No apology needed; just knowing it isn't malicious is good enough for me, and for my part I could have organized my original sentence better. I don't think deep dungeons were a flop, but they're not stellar either. Anecdotally, they're mostly used for leveling because the lack of role restrictions give DPS an easy shot in compared to tanks and healers trying to do the same thing. Otherwise the most disappointing thing was how Stormblood's iteration failed to deliver any meaningful changes to the formula, aside from making the farming floors the same as the final basic floors (51-60/100 vs 21-30/30) so it's easier to get potsherds and guaranteed levels.

Summarized, my point is XIV doesn't have a strong track record for side content, although not for lack of trying. Good on them for trying, too, this game needs more to do, but that discussion also falls to rewards for doing said side-content. That's why even though I'm cautiously optimistic like you are, I am losing faith and I understand the people who have already lost faith; it's most likely that, like you said in your document, if the BLU experiment fails, we've most likely lost BLU completely as anything other than the side content it was created for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrenGarm

Not sure how I counter my own argument. For the record, I've never complained about patch cycles, sameness, or any of that, anywhere. Maybe that was someone else? And maybe those people are happy with BLU? Different players like different things. The fanbase isn't monolithic, as you suggest.

You're entitled to your opinion. However, if you like FFXIV jobs, then there's no reason BLU can't satisfy as a FFXIV-style job. If you don't like them, then why are you even playing the game? That's what it boils down to for me.

---

When I say we.. I don't mean you I mean the community at large which has done all of those things. Same with you it's not a personal target just using it as an umbrella term. My point with blue mage and the initial blow back is not that it should not receive blow back. It's that it shouldn't receive it yet and it shouldn't be suggested just yet that it's "some easy thing to balance in end game" when we do not know how it works yet. We don't know how the abilities perform yet or anything like that. I would entirely shut up if people would just stop for a few weeks.. try it and come back with reason and fact based feedback. that's my main point. Do I personally know that BLU is going to be this awesome on going content? No. Do I know it is going to be a complete and utter flop? No. Do I know that it would have been so easy to make it a "full meta job" No. Do I know that it's impossible to keep the blue mage feel and experience while keeping it a full meta job? No.

Because I don't know what it's like to create, code, and balance a job in an mmorpg. I can't even begin to fathom how complicated that must be, but saying they screwed up before we know anything or have any experience with this content and coming up with ways to fix it already is not reasonable. It's emotional. Better to come back with facts based on experience and make a well reasoned and thought out argument against their implementation than just blind backlash.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkpaw

When I say we.. I don't mean you I mean the community at large which has done all of those things. Same with you it's not a personal target just using it as an umbrella term. My point with blue mage and the initial blow back is not that it should not receive blow back. It's that it shouldn't receive it yet and it shouldn't be suggested just yet that it's "some easy thing to balance in end game" when we do not know how it works yet. We don't know how the abilities perform yet or anything like that. I would entirely shut up if people would just stop for a few weeks.. try it and come back with reason and fact based feedback. that's my main point. Do I personally know that BLU is going to be this awesome on going content? No. Do I know it is going to be a complete and utter flop? No. Do I know that it would have been so easy to make it a "full meta job" No. Do I know that it's impossible to keep the blue mage feel and experience while keeping it a full meta job? No.

Because I don't know what it's like to create, code, and balance a job in an mmorpg. I can't even begin to fathom how complicated that must be, but saying they screwed up before we know anything or have any experience with this content and coming up with ways to fix it already is not reasonable. It's emotional. Better to come back with facts based on experience and make a well reasoned and thought out argument against their implementation than just blind backlash.

---

I see what you're saying, but I think it's entirely valid and appropriate for people to say, "I don't like the way they're treating this job. I am disappointed by this approach." We can't use facts to state our opinion, because it's just an opinion. We can only base our opinion on the information available. So, according to what I know about BLU today, I think this version is a massive disappointment. I'm also afraid for the future of the game. BLU's design endangers not only the current fanbase of the game but also future subscribers who might feel deceived or let down by a job like this, as well as any future "Limited Job" that Square might create. It's not far off from a Diablo mobile moment for Square. They horribly misjudged what people were asking for when they asked for BLU. No one asked for this.

Honestly Square could provide more information about their intentions for this job in the future if they wanted more accurate feedback right now, but clearly they don't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrenGarm

I see what you're saying, but I think it's entirely valid and appropriate for people to say, "I don't like the way they're treating this job. I am disappointed by this approach." We can't use facts to state our opinion, because it's just an opinion. We can only base our opinion on the information available. So, according to what I know about BLU today, I think this version is a massive disappointment. I'm also afraid for the future of the game. BLU's design endangers not only the current fanbase of the game but also future subscribers who might feel deceived or let down by a job like this, as well as any future "Limited Job" that Square might create. It's not far off from a Diablo mobile moment for Square. They horribly misjudged what people were asking for when they asked for BLU. No one asked for this.

Honestly Square could provide more information about their intentions for this job in the future if they wanted more accurate feedback right now, but clearly they don't.

---

And in that. Stating it's an opinion not a fact is fine. I still say give it a chance and come back with feedback to try and see it changed for the better. I don't quite agree with this being a Diablo Immortal level gaffe or even coming close I can see how it would be perceived that way. They touch on a lot of things with blue mage that the community has asked for, for a long time now. It does have the chance, and I stress the word chance to open up this game to a much broader audience. Yes, it is going to put off some people. It's only a matter of time until we see how many, and I have faith that this dev team will strive to do right by this community. Blue mage is going to be very divisive. So far from just what SE has said about the limited job system. It's opened the doors they have previously shut through many different interviews about certain jobs.. Blue Mage, Beast Tamer, and Puppet Master have all been tagged for this system. With only blue mage being confirmed. These were all jobs we have been told repeatedly by Yoshi P in several interviews that we were never going to get. All of a sudden this new system pops up and the door is opened again. So my personal opinion. Is that this may not be as bad as everyone fears it to be. Yes, it's disappointing what is happening with blue mage but it's also probably smart in the grand scheme of things and i'm willing to experience it and see what their vision for blue mage is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkpaw

And in that. Stating it's an opinion not a fact is fine. I still say give it a chance and come back with feedback to try and see it changed for the better. I don't quite agree with this being a Diablo Immortal level gaffe or even coming close I can see how it would be perceived that way. They touch on a lot of things with blue mage that the community has asked for, for a long time now. It does have the chance, and I stress the word chance to open up this game to a much broader audience. Yes, it is going to put off some people. It's only a matter of time until we see how many, and I have faith that this dev team will strive to do right by this community. Blue mage is going to be very divisive. So far from just what SE has said about the limited job system. It's opened the doors they have previously shut through many different interviews about certain jobs.. Blue Mage, Beast Tamer, and Puppet Master have all been tagged for this system. With only blue mage being confirmed. These were all jobs we have been told repeatedly by Yoshi P in several interviews that we were never going to get. All of a sudden this new system pops up and the door is opened again. So my personal opinion. Is that this may not be as bad as everyone fears it to be. Yes, it's disappointing what is happening with blue mage but it's also probably smart in the grand scheme of things and i'm willing to experience it and see what their vision for blue mage is.

---

Speaking personally, I'd rather get different, real jobs from the limited dev resources than any limited job, ever, no matter what they are. BLU is one of my favorite FF concepts, so it is hard for me to accept I'll never get to play it as a real job. I'd rather never get BLU in XIV than have all that dev time wasted on a minigame implementation of it.

FF has plenty of amazing job ideas throughout its history that would work in XIV. Just focus on the ones that work in the game and let the rest go. Don't waste all that time and effort on stuff that's better for a single-player game. Just make a different single-player game called Final Fantasy: Forever Blue to satisfy all those BLU fans out there. Don't try to shoehorn a version of that into XIV that will not fully satisfy anyone.