Blue Mage Primal Abilities Vs Summoner lack of Primal "Abilities"

I take the view that Summoner is a tricky one. What they gave us at ARR was not a 'proper' Summoner job but what they did give us was still a very good job that was enjoyable to play, but it was more of a DoT mage with a pet than a summoner. What they have inadvertently done is give it a big of an identity crisis, on the one hand FFXIV's rendition of SMN is a DoT mage with an Egi and on the other hand there are people who want a summoner closer to that of other FF titles, which is not unreasonable. If they satisfied the latter, then they make the people who lose DoT mage SMN unhappy, and yet there is a demand for it. It seems Demi-Bahamut was the solution to that problem, work in a bigger summon into their rotation and I expect that is the direction SMN will continue to take. But the new egis have long been bait, I can understand balancing issues in having more pets, but then arguably other similar styled MMO's have managed to be more generous with their selection of pets.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

I take the view that Summoner is a tricky one. What they gave us at ARR was not a 'proper' Summoner job but what they did give us was still a very good job that was enjoyable to play, but it was more of a DoT mage with a pet than a summoner. What they have inadvertently done is give it a big of an identity crisis, on the one hand FFXIV's rendition of SMN is a DoT mage with an Egi and on the other hand there are people who want a summoner closer to that of other FF titles, which is not unreasonable. If they satisfied the latter, then they make the people who lose DoT mage SMN unhappy, and yet there is a demand for it. It seems Demi-Bahamut was the solution to that problem, work in a bigger summon into their rotation and I expect that is the direction SMN will continue to take. But the new egis have long been bait, I can understand balancing issues in having more pets, but then arguably other similar styled MMO's have managed to be more generous with their selection of pets.

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I feel like a lot of Summoner players that like the job as it is more so like how the job plays because it is fun, which there is nothing wrong with, and less because of how it is implemented as a Summoner job. Every Summoner player I've talked to in game wants more from the job in terms of actually Summoning or at least feeling like it has more of a connection to summoning, even if they are ok with the way it currently plays. Demi-Bahamut was definitely a step in the right direction, though it feels like Summoner is still kind of split between what it is trying to do. On one end it is a dot mage, which is because it is tied to arcanist, and there is definitely a niche place for that kind of gameplay in the roster. On the other hand it has Egi's, which make it a pet job and offers the potential to feel like a traditional Summoner. Then we have the Trance which has in a sense given the Summoner the ability to tap into the primals abilities (similar to Terra's Trance form on a smaller scale). I like each of these forms separately, and when merged together are fun, but like you said it really makes Summoner a little confusing aesthetically.

I think they should just double down on the trances and LB3's. Egi glamours are ok but I personally think that SMN in this game lends itself more to the old school version of summoners, ex summon a primal, it uses an attack, then disappears. Demi Bahamut functions in the same way, just wish the AI was better. I'm hoping the next SMN trance has something to do with Alexander and it's auto attacks are aoe focused. Another way to make SMN feel like a summoner is to have their LB3's perform the primals ultimate attack move of the egi-glamour/trance currently active. Like you can summon Ifirit if Ifrit-egi is out and he will do Hellfire etc. I think it would be cool in an alliance raid if you had SMN's from each of the three parties use their LB3 and you see Garuda, Ifrit and Titan show up or Ramuh, Shiva, etc.

...or they could just increase the size of the egi's and change the textures on them so they don't look like floating chicken nuggets.

We'll I've posted many a thread on this subject in the past. Two key complaints that keep coming up are no new Egis and Egi designs are meh. Egi Glamous first needs to be streamlined and divided into two categories; Melee and Ranged. "Summon I" would be ranged and "Summon II/II"I would be melee. An example of this would be Ifrit, Titan, Shiva, would be glamoured as a melee to either Summon II or III based on player preference and Garuda, Ramuh, Levi as a range would be glamoured to Summon I.

To address Egi "meh" factor, DWT needs to be reworked. 4.0 SB was a step in the right direction and can be used to fix the problem. When a player enters DWT, the current Egi increases in size and resembles the true Primal Form. Enkindle would replace Deathflare as a massive finish with increased damage and improved visual.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

I take the view that Summoner is a tricky one. What they gave us at ARR was not a 'proper' Summoner job but what they did give us was still a very good job that was enjoyable to play, but it was more of a DoT mage with a pet than a summoner. What they have inadvertently done is give it a big of an identity crisis, on the one hand FFXIV's rendition of SMN is a DoT mage with an Egi and on the other hand there are people who want a summoner closer to that of other FF titles, which is not unreasonable. If they satisfied the latter, then they make the people who lose DoT mage SMN unhappy, and yet there is a demand for it. It seems Demi-Bahamut was the solution to that problem, work in a bigger summon into their rotation and I expect that is the direction SMN will continue to take. But the new egis have long been bait, I can understand balancing issues in having more pets, but then arguably other similar styled MMO's have managed to be more generous with their selection of pets.

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True

I wish that arcanist would have just been a job of its own as a dot mage with pets, without the Bahamut stuff...

SMN and SCH should have always been their own job without a base class or at least SMN should have because I think SCH is fine as is.

But tying Arcanist to SMN was their downfall because there are plenty of ease SMN could have been done right...they got it right with DWT and Demi Bahamut....but the dots, egi and what not should have been an Arcanist Job or hell make its job a Witch/Warlock...

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

True

I wish that arcanist would have just been a job of its own as a dot mage with pets, without the Bahamut stuff...

SMN and SCH should have always been their own job without a base class or at least SMN should have because I think SCH is fine as is.

But tying Arcanist to SMN was their downfall because there are plenty of ease SMN could have been done right...they got it right with DWT and Demi Bahamut....but the dots, egi and what not should have been an Arcanist Job or hell make its job a Witch/Warlock...

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I would like to address this with a little History lesson and try to explain why it's the way it is. Back in 2011 there were two popular MMO models SE was looking at when revamping XIV; WoW Vanilla and FFXI. They wanted to add a pet job into the game but need a model to base it from. FFXI summoner had a lukewarm response from the playerbase often being used as a healer rather than dps because it lacked any job identity and role was based on a subjob, /whm. FFXI beastmaster would just charm enemies in the field and was mainly a solo class. WoW had Warlock, a DoT based class with a pet and Hunter which would tame pets in the field.

Also a key thing to remember in FFXIV 2.0 was every job was meant to be unique and not play like another job. Having SMN just cast spells would have been two similar to BLM. Ultimately the battle designer chose to go with the WoW model and thus FFXIV Summoner was born, for better or worse.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

I would like to address this with a little History lesson and try to explain why it's the way it is. Back in 2011 there were two popular MMO models SE was looking at when revamping XIV; WoW Vanilla and FFXI. They wanted to add a pet job into the game but need a model to base it from. FFXI summoner had a lukewarm response from the playerbase often being used as a healer rather than dps because it lacked any job identity and role was based on a subjob, /whm. FFXI beastmaster would just charm enemies in the field and was mainly a solo class. WoW had Warlock, a DoT based class with a pet and Hunter which would tame pets in the field.

Also a key thing to remember in FFXIV 2.0 was every job was meant to be unique and not play like another job. Having SMN just cast spells would have been two similar to BLM. Ultimately the battle designer chose to go with the WoW model and thus FFXIV Summoner was born, for better or worse.

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All understandable but here we are with the design flaw from years ago where simply doing what they did to SMN in HW and SB could have been their path from the start...their are too many templates for a games with over 15 titles to its name....

But either way I love my class just wish is was more SMN and less witch/warlock

Lol, SMN is barely a DoT mage/Warlock at this point...The DoT management has been cut down significantly. Bio and Miasma are important but just a small part of its kit.

If anything, SMN is known for having a LOT of ogcd/instant spells.

Summoners, rest easy, you'll never have any kind of competition from Blue Mages. Only Summoners still get to use primal themed abilities in any actual gameplay.

Can Summoner be the next "Limited Job" and go Kill Primals and then be able to actually summon them and cause DEVASTATING WORLD CHANGING ATTACKS!

Sorry for my outburst XD. Although I do think that would be amazing and go on a Summoners Pilgrimage, i.e. FFX, and collect all the summons, I in no way shape or form believe that will EVER happen. Would be cool, but it is what it is.