I personally don't have an issue with our current vertical progression right now. I've only played a few games and only for a short amount of time that even had it in this same vein. But this was the first time I really experienced it full force. So it's not something I was even used to and I actually welcomed against the slog that was FFXI's horizontal progression.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzian
Now I love many things in FFXI, but leveling and the horrific RNG that gated items from the horizontal progression were two I did not enjoy. I personally never found it fun or invigorating to spend literal years chipping away at a small chance to FINALLY obtain just a side grade or an upgrade that was barely noticeable. And to even the full fledged upgrades half the time when you finally obtained it it felt like such a hollow victory at times.
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10-12-2018, 01:38 AMYamimarik
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10-12-2018, 01:46 AMDoki
Haven't touched endgame raiding since my old static FC feel apart back at T9. Watching the occasional vid of the mechanics introduced in the Omega series does not exactly make me want to think about rejoining the fray. That stuff is nuts. I'm missing out on a few mounts/minions, and 5 ilvls on weapon, but I can live with that.
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10-12-2018, 01:59 AMLastelli
I understand your point...but I personally think fflogs is the best thing that happened to the ffxiv world after the Calamity.
At least it gives me something to work for in non-trivial content.
Anyway, fflogs' existence is a direct consequence of SE stubborness on refusing to provide the players with a built-in dps meter despite the fact that any kind of relevant content completely revolves around dps. Players will always find a way to analyze the data inside a parametric game, and the more the game is based on meeting some parametric requirement, the more sophisticated third party analysis tools will become. It's no surprise that fflogs became widespread after gordias. -
10-12-2018, 02:06 AMPyurBlue
My bar for judging the endgame is how fun the content is. The current raids are meeting my expectations, so I'm satisfied. Ideally, I think fun is the only incentive content needs. If there is one issue that I have it's that FF14 combat in general is a memorization game which kind of degrades replayability. However the number of classes available in the game and a few of the minor customization options offsets this a bit.
I disagree with the idea that FFlogs has done any damage to raiding. In fact, I doubt the site matters in the grand scheme of things. There is a very big discrepancy between some of the complaints I see from the community and what I experience in game. That doesn't mean that those complaints aren't justified, but I think each person's perspective plays a role in how large they perceive the issues to be. Logs are not something I typically see mentioned (but no surprise there when they are technically illegal), and on those occasions where they are brought up even gray parsers aren't kicked or shamed on sight. I've been in raids where someone with a parser used it to inform the group of a lack of DPS, which lead to DPS increasing in subsequent pulls. There is absolutely a gap in skill between players in this game, but it doesn't immediately lead to fighting and hostility. Many patient experienced raiders can be found and there are also a good number of new players willing and eager to learn. Not everyone falls into those categories but the players who do aren't some kind of one in a million rarity. -
10-12-2018, 02:35 AMKaivaC
I'd have to disagree with the stance on fflogs. There are plenty of people using it for the wrong reasons, sure, but I wholly disagree that it negativity affected raiding like that. Especially now with that analysis site that reads your log and gives you general job pointers on what you can be doing better.
When I pull 5.3k on a O9S clear as a ninja and I can look at my log, that's a big problem, because I'm letting my whole static down because my dps is crap. Fflogs gives me the information I need to know so I can study up and figure out what I'm messing up on. So it's not so much a competition to my eyes as it's a red flag that my 5.3k dps doesn't cut it, and my static ends up suffering because I'm not carrying my weight. I need to use fflogs to figure out where my timing is off, my trick attack usage, etc. -
10-12-2018, 03:01 AMYamimarik
Some people aren't really seeing some of the things I'm saying, but I digress on that part.
On the part that people are, and are disagreeing with me on my views. I understand you all have your opinions and views. But you most likely all have had mostly if not anything but positive outcomes with the people you run into or static with. Again there isn't anything wrong with wanting to always do better. But I personally feel expecting everyone to be at the 100% top percentile and the "best" or even close to it as possible is just an extremely unrealistic ideal.
Everyone out there playing this game will never play the same exact way. Everyone will always have some varying degrees of play-styles and especially strategies that will most likely show varying skills and numbers in the long run. No two people play exactly the same. I'm not saying everyone expects this because I know that isn't true. But it's more expected now days and widely excepted practice then during 2.XX raiding. -
10-12-2018, 04:37 AMMoomba33
I was among those that advocated for story mode raids back during ARR. I managed to clear up to t9 in Coil with pugs before getting stuck and frustrated. I never had any interest in raiding itself, I just tried to push myself through for the story occasionally accompanied by a friend or two that was interested.
When HW launched with a story mode for Alexander it was a dream come true for me since I knew I'd never have to worry about clearing a real raid again. I did do some A1S for light farming near the end of HW and O1S in SB since the forums said it was too easy to be called Savage but for the most part my Savage raiding experience has been limited to unsync.
So I guess I can't really comment on if the endgame scene is better or worse now since I never really liked it to begin with. I will say that the current model most likely attracts more people with a competitive nature since there isn't much of a reason to raid outside of challenging yourself anymore.
FFlogs has increased in prominence over the years. I don't see parsing come up often in the segments of the game that I frequent though.
Now to be fair my friends and I did finish Coil unsynced during HW so it's not like we missed out on the story forever. But I much prefer experiencing it while it's new with the story mode raids and I find them enjoyable content in and of themselves. -
10-12-2018, 04:45 AMInkstainedGwyn
FFLogs will have nothing to do with you if you join a static or raid group that chooses to ignore them. Nobody will be pointing at numbers, and you can raid the way you want. There's no official competition boards, and you shouldn't care if other people talk about it if that's what they enjoy. It's not like we have a cohesive "raiding scene", so I don't really get how other people focusing on competition and efficiency should dull your enjoyment of it. I know there are plenty of folks who prefer to take a more organic approach.
I've met my fair share of people who just drop "lolz ur deeps sux" based off parsing, and yeah, those people are jerks. That's why I'm not personally a fan of parsing. The key word there is "personally". I know plenty of people who use it as a tool to encourage themselves to do better/learn from, and that's their prerogative, too. Not everybody-or even a majority-who uses parsers is doing it as a means to shame/compete.
We're playing a game, and games get competitive. People are always looking for ways to be efficient. Ignoring the fact that half of these "nostalgic old days" posts neglect to take into account that games are always going to come off as shiny and exciting when they're new and that luster is going to fade as we become accustomed to them/complete them, the idea that FFLogs/parsing is some new phenomenon is laughable. I remember raiding with a group in vanilla WoW that required everyone to have a parser and to keep their numbers above a certain %. It's been around for as long as video games were around, and improved technology only means that it's easier for folks to find and use these tools. -
10-12-2018, 05:02 AMPaladinleedsYep, exactly that. Can't find a raid group that doesn't have that ignoring FFLogs mantra? Make your own. That's what I did back in Sigmascape. It was fun and casual. I haven't bothered in Alphascape though. Though a friend is still offering me a place in his static IIRC, but that involves a change of realm (everyone's on the same realm), changing what job I'm on, and not being allowed to stream it (as the people in the group aren't keen with it). So it isn't for me, so if I do go for a static, I'll just make my own again.Quote:
Originally Posted by InkstainedGwyn
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10-12-2018, 07:21 AMgreytonberryInteresting, as someone who has played mainly games with vertical progression I have to say that I feel the opposite. In this game upgrades come so easily with so little effort and are only stat increases. TBH i wouldn't even notice the upgrades if ACT didn't tell me i was being a good boy. Not to mention the process of gearing is just awfully boring, but I feel that stems from issues in other parts of the game or just base game design flubs. I never feel like woooo I'm BiS, it's more like I'm finally BiS ugh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamimarik