[4.4 Raid Spoilers] Omega's Origin Is Nuts

You can see other galaxies with the naked eye*, though Ishgardian astrologians do have the aid of telescopes and the like. Also, you can track the movement of actual stars, not just planets in our same solar system...

*not so much on Earth today thanks to light pollution - but before the electric light took over, it was easy to see the Milky Way from basically anywhere, and on the night of the new moon you can see nearby galaxies like Andromeda and so on.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Unless the Planet somehow started to emit light in some way. It's idd odd as a situation astronomically wise

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Not odd at all - otherwise how would we see the planets of our own solar system? Or the moon?

They don’t shine with their own light, they’re lit by the sun.

Their brightness can vary depending on where they are in their orbits, thus how much light they reflect back, and Mercury and Venus (orbiting closer to the sun) even have phases like the moon.

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Originally Posted by AmemeAmeklin

You can see other galaxies with the naked eye*, though Ishgardian astrologians do have the aid of telescopes and the like. Also, you can track the movement of actual stars, not just planets in our same solar system...

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I don’t have the quote now, but they definitely said they were tracking the movement relative to other stars.

While they could be tracking actual star movement, it's a much smaller and slower business than planetary movement. (Article: proper motion)


EDIT: The most practical resolution might be that, as Moose put it, the "dragon star" and the explicitly-named-dragon-homeworld "dragonstar" are not the same thing.... but that seems like a disappointing answer to the previously established link between the dragon star and the extraterrestrial dragons themselves. What makes it important to them, then?

As far as the Dragon star goes, we shouldn't forget that the Dravanians and the Ishgardians were once a collective, or at least a cooperative civilization. We see evidence of that everywhere, and it only fell apart with the betrayal of Ishgard and the murder of Ratatoskr.

Midgardsormr or one of its kin could very well have pointed out the star that the Elder Wyrm made the long trek from, putting together the building blocks of what would eventually become modern Astrology.

I was kinda hoping Omega would make a more human looking form and travel around eorzea, to learn more about human strength, instead Alpha went travelling.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Not odd at all - otherwise how would we see the planets of our own solar system? Or the moon?

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The oddness is not about seeing planets from the same solar system, it's about seeing planets from entirely different, distant solar systems, with the equipment available to Ishgardians.

Which Omega's long journey to get to Hydaelyn (passing by several "stars" along the way) would imply.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Not odd at all - otherwise how would we see the planets of our own solar system? Or the moon?

They don’t shine with their own light, they’re lit by the sun.

Their brightness can vary depending on where they are in their orbits, thus how much light they reflect back, and Mercury and Venus (orbiting closer to the sun) even have phases like the moon.

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I know that, my point is that we shouldn't be able to see the light of a planet outside of the solar system, but if the Ishgardian are using the movement relative to the other stars than it's all fine

Ah, Wikipedia. Currently browsing history features all sorts of articles on planets, stars, white dwarfs, multi-star solar systems, accretion discs, the Roche limit, stellar collisions, virtual black holes and stars literally tearing their planets apart....

Anyway.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I know that, my point is that we shouldn't be able to see the light of a planet outside of the solar system, but if the Ishgardian are using the movement relative to the other stars than it's all fine

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Sorry, you hadn't clarified you were talking about it as a planet around another star - I was the only one who'd talked about it as being the observed "dragon star", and (at least in my mind) only if it was within the solar system. A more distant origin would mean they have to be observing the star itself.

I was also going to say that even a glowing planet wouldn't be visible against the glare of its star, but that started my Wiki adventure because I remembered about Sirius being a double-star with a white dwarf, which glows. (Main star is 1.7 x the Sun's radius; dwarf star is Earth-sized.) That is visible in a telescope, and was discovered in the mid-1800s - so still somewhat ahead of Ishgard's technology level.

Also the first scientific detection of an exoplanet (ie. orbiting a star other than the Sun) didn't happen until 1988, although was theorised a lot earlier.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

The oddness is not about seeing planets from the same solar system, it's about seeing planets from entirely different, distant solar systems, with the equipment available to Ishgardians.

Which Omega's long journey to get to Hydaelyn (passing by several "stars" along the way) would imply.

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Omega's description of its journey is messy, and the game's tendency to use the term "star" to also mean "planet" doesn't help.

Omega travelled through an asteroid belt and then "Passing frozen star... Passing barren star... Passing vortex star... Passing dying star... "

But then its target's last location was "planet ******", so that implies it knows the difference between a star and a planet.

And yet the described "stars" don't all sound like stars.

A star can't possibly be "frozen". By definition they are giant balls of nuclear-explosion-heated plasma and even the "coolest" types measure in thousands of degrees. If it's stopped radiating heat, it's no longer a star. (Possible, but takes longer than the age of our universe for anything to cool to that point.)

And what would a "barren star" be? That sounds much more like a description of a planet.

But... a "vortex star". Unless it's a very lost-in-translation ringed planet (with some kind of uneven swirling disk perhaps), that suggests a black hole to me. Definitely not something you want within your solar system.

And "dying star" could be either, but more ominous if it's a planet.



Also, for a small grasp of the potential timescale, this fragment from Wikipedia's Star article:

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The nearest star to the Earth, apart from the Sun, is Proxima Centauri, which is 39.9 trillion kilometres, or 4.2 light-years. Travelling at the orbital speed of the Space Shuttle (8 kilometres per second — almost 30,000 kilometres per hour), it would take about 150,000 years to arrive. This is typical of stellar separations in galactic discs. Stars can be much closer to each other in the centres of galaxies and in globular clusters, or much farther apart in galactic halos.

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By comparison, the Voyager 1 probe - launched in 1977, with a current speed of 17km/s, and the most distant man-made object from Earth - has travelled 21.3 billion kilometres (about three times the distance to Pluto, or 1/500th of a lightyear).


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I also found the quote I was looking for - it's talk dialogue from one of the student astrologians at the beginning of the questline.

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MUGUENIEL (Lv35 quest)
While sailors use the pole star for guidance, we astrologians look to the dragon star, for its position and magnitude in relation with neighboring celestial bodies can reveal when and where the Dravanian Horde will strike next.

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I took that to mean it must be a planet because, as I mentioned earlier, there's not a great deal of tracking to be done if it's an actual star, except for a slow drift over a vast timescale. (Which, come to think of it, is what's often mentioned about the dragons themselves - operating on such a long lifespan that the movement of stars might be perceptible to them. But still not much change on the scale of human observation.)

I also have just realised I may have read that sentence wrong. I took it as tracking the [relative position] and [relative magnitude] to other stars, but it could be position in the sky and only magnitude being relative to other stars. Though I'm not sure how you actually measure magnitude and whether it involves comparisons or not.



On the other hand, I also found this from one of the other students:

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HEURIETTE (Lv35 quest)
Oh, an astrologian now, are we? Well, then perhaps you can show me the approximate degree of the dragon star's cyclical declination as a result of the precession of the equinoxes when coupled with annual parallax? No?

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All terms for tracking actual star movement (and all in a single paragraph here) but I have no idea if they actually make sense together or if she's just trying to bewilder us. But then again...

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HEURIETTE (Lv60 SB quest)
Between you and me... I've never been that skilled at astrology. Two winters here and I still haven't opened a single heaven. I can't even spell half of the ridiculous terms we're supposed to memorize!

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And possibly back on the first hand (or just thrown out the window because it's too confusing):

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FLEURAIE (Lv35 quest)
As a novitiate here at the Athenaeum, I have been assigned several important tasks outside my regular studies. One of those is delivering updated star maps to the Observatorium.
Between you and me, I do not see why they cannot simply use moogles.

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Frequent delivery of updated star maps? How odd. Are they, again, actually tracking planets, or are the stars of this universe moving at a much more perceptible rate than our own?



I'm going with "the writers didn't think this through from an astronomical perspective".

There's also the perspective that stars in FFXIV don't act like stars in our universe. In fact, the Astrologin class seems to run on the fact that stars have their own aether that is different from the aether that comes from the planet. Or rather, the planet's aether is it's own type of aether the same way other stars have their own type of aether.

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Originally Posted by Leveva

Now listen carefully, for we haven't much time. The star globe which you hold is both your sword and shield. It will grant you strength, as well as protection. But most important of all, it will grant you insight into the current location of the stars, enabling you to channel the heavens' aether into your body for use in all manner of magicks.
The better attuned you become with the heavens and their “malefic” and “benefic” bodies, the better that aether might be manipulated to bring succor...or pain.

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This seems to indicate that star position effects the aether coming from the heavens. Also, it seems the aether from the heavens comes in two different "flavors" that have to do with damage or healing.

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Originally Posted by Mace

Look to the skies, Forename, and there you will see six stars aglow in pale yellow. This is the Bole.
This constellation is thought to be the gate to the first heaven─the heaven which holds the World Tree. Planted by the Matron and nurtured by the Keeper, the World Tree is the source from which all life is said to have sprung.
The trunk of the World Tree, or the Bole, offers protection to the weak, defending them from harm.
You have now opened that gate, and its power is yours to command.

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The aether coming from the stars in the constellations is linked to the different heavens somehow. So I'm guessing that when stars are "close enough" to each other, their aether combines to be greater then the sum of it's parts. Maybe it has to do with the overall number of "malefic" and "benefic" bodies in a given constellation? IE: The Spear, Arrow and Balance might be mostly comprised of "malefic" bodies. The Bole, Spire and Ewer might be mostly comprised of "benefic" bodies.

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Originally Posted by Jannequinard

You are aware of the seven heavens, are you not? Just as there are seven realms of the underworld, so too are there seven realms of the firmament. Each of the first six represent one of the six basic elements─earth, ice, water, wind, lightning, and fire─the seventh and final heaven representing the elements' astral polarity.
The first six heavens are represented by the six constellations which each revolve around the pole star.
Astrologians of the Sharlayan school draw on the aether contained in the celestial bodies represented in the constellations by “unlocking” or “opening” the gate to heaven that constellation is correlated with. There is no actual gate...think of it as more a portal to the soul. You are opening your mind, allowing for attunement with these distant bodies, much like one attunes with an aetheryte, but on a far grander scale.

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Lots of good information here. The stars/constellations seem to function like aetherytes, that is, they are shortcuts to different "places" in the aetherial sea. Only with constellations, you are being pulled to them; you are pulling their unique aether to you.

This also introduces the concepts of the stars moving. And as much as I want to say it's just the planet Hydaelyn turning on it's axis... I don't know if we can say that for certain. Stars orbiting a pole star would look the same if the stars were moving instead of the planet spinning. The same would go for the sun moving around the planet...

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Originally Posted by Kyokuho

Our conversations have been...eye-opening, to say the least. She theorizes that our two schools may actually be one and the same. Whereas astrologians look to the stars above to read their fates, we geomancers look to the star below and listen to its songs, and draw our answers from its whispers.

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This discusses the possibility that Geomancy uses a "star's" aether too. Only unlike Astrology that uses many stars' aether, Geomancy only uses one specific star's aether; the aether of the star they are currently living on. This also makes the star/planet difference really confusing, as Kyokuho isn't talking about the sun here. He's talking about Hydaelyn, the planet.

This also reminds me a lot of Ishgardian Astrology. Like Geomancy, it's only concerned with one star. Only in Ishgardian Astrology, it's not a star the Astrologers are living on. I wonder if all their studies have to do with just the way the Dragonstar looks, or if it's also concerned with the aether that comes from the Dragonstar. Personally, I think it's the latter. It might also be that "starlight" and "star-aether" are the same thing for all practical purposes, so studying one is like studying the other.

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Originally Posted by Leveva

Before we set forth on this task, I wish to teach you of a second set of stars─the nocturnal sect.
The nocturnal sect contains those celestial bodies ruled by the two moons. I say two, because since the dawn of astrology, disciples of our field have used Dalamud in their readings. Now, even after the false moon's fall, its position...or should I say, its absence, yet has influence over our fates.
Whereas the sun and the diurnal stars represent the self, expression, the active─and the moon and the nocturnal stars represent the unconscious, the passive─Dalamud represents, and still does represent the uncontrollable. Its power has the ability to quicken the senses, as well as provide added protection from the unknown─things beneficial when pursuing one's fate.

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Originally Posted by Leveva

In the heavens, there exist two sects which influence the type of energy that dominates the plane─nocturnal and diurnal. The former draws energies from the moon with the power to repel and protect. My guess is that this is what you and Forename used to mend the bonds before. The second sect, however─the diurnal─draws energy from the sun. Energy to calm and to heal.

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These two quotes are at the end, because they are about the only bit of Astrology magic I've seen that isn't concerned with "star-aether". Instead, it's concerned with the sun and moon(s). And in the moon's case, it's specifically interested in where the moon is (or should be in Dalamud's case). I'm assuming it's the same case for the sun. I'd be very interested in knowing how the sun and moons influence "star-ather" if indeed they do at all. Given that the sects influence the Aspected spell, I'm going to bet they do in some way. This gets really, really weird if the sun is a star like we think it should be. What makes it different from the rest of the stars that Astrologins interact with? And for that matter, is the sun of any interest to Geomancers?

Yeah, this is really, really confusing. I'd really appreciate it if the devs is going on in the FFXIV cosmos that makes the "sun" different from the "stars" which are treated more like they are "planets" except that they look like far away "suns". Hopefully Lore Book II has something to say about all this...

Kind of a meaningless add-on to the conversation but if you take all four languages into account, it's something like:

Frozen planet
Desert planet
Gaseous planet
Dying planet