Ninja, The problem job and some ideas to change it.

really the only issue with NIN is ten-chi-jin imo
"lets make a very mobile and quick class that has latency issues and give them a move that locks them in place which has even worse Latency issues"

alot of those moves like assassinate probably could do with some kind of rework maybe the way Sole survivor became usable but the effect is just less but if they let them be use at half potency/half the effect but the CD would need to be tweaked.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I don't deny player knowledge is a factor but latency is definitely a very big issue. And has a very significant impact. In heavensward i could easily fit raiton combos in between gcds with no clipping issues at all. I play in the UK and have always been on the same server ever since thevfirdt day of 1.0. Then called saronia merged with lindbalm later on and became sargatanas. A ping average of about 150

Ever since they moved the data centre though ninja has been heavily affefted by latency a lot of times you cant even toss a 1 mudra fuma shurikan without clipping the gcd. And ten chi jin is just absolutely horrendous with even the slightest bit of lag. My latency isn't much worse 180 ish these days but mudras are very very much noticeably slower.. And that has a very significant effect on job performance. When even a fuma clips the gcd sometimes.

I had suggested once many ninja issues could be fixed just making mudras weavable. So you could go. Spinning heal > ten > gust slash > chi > aeolian edge > ninjutsu (raiton).
Keep the minute button on it's 20 second recast but allow the just as to be recast instantly with a longer duration..

This would then allow players to essentially prep there next mudras while ninjutsu is on cool down and thus go a long way to combatting the latency issues. Without changing the job to much.

Ten chi jin I have no idea what to do there but even the slightest bit of lag and your screwed

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Hmmm I had that issue, buffed up my device never again -.-. I love NIN again. While connections do play a big factor so does the device. Your right it can be a bit of a drag and I play on both PC and PS. I upgraded my system from 32bit to a 64bit 4k Graphics card, icore7 and have not had any issues since then. On my PS however I did have that issue ( first Gen ) so upgraded to new one no issues either. I will not deny some areas are better than others, however some players don't take into considerations the specs on their system. You can't max it out and expect no to encounter problems specially if PC and does background actions and have no knowledge on how to teak it. No you in particular, however for most.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Ninja does have the lowest personal DPS of the melee jobs, which then creates the question of does the damage boost from trick attack, and the added time tanks can spend in DPS stance thanks to enmity skills offset that reduced damage? It's hard to attribute how much added DPS the ninja brings, a tank might go to DPS stance regardless, but how much extra time does he get to spend there thanks to the ninja? You can't really track that through logs.

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A tool already exists which calculates each job's rDPS, though it's been somewhat buggy lately. Regardless, Ninja's contributions average between 700-950 depending on the comp. Trick Attack is absurdly powerful, which is what keeps it meta. While Shade and Smoke are undeniably valuable, enmity has become such a joke nowadays, it's Trick Attack that remains Ninja's defining attribute.

Which is why the OP's proposed nerf would kill the job instantly. At least not without a substantial buff to their overall damage.

@ wereotter Well i guess i will look at the logs and not that i care too much but i do find it really hard to believe RM does more damage then Bard and Ninja. At least Ninja i would somewhat believe.
RM still could use changes, and Ninja i guess with utility in mind they would not do much to change the job without making it "OP".
And yes latency really does plague Ninja still to this day, it has been so annoying past few months while raiding and multiple instances mudras not registering. So perhaps it is time they have another look at the Mudra System?
idk i am no Ninja expert

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I had suggested once many ninja issues could be fixed just making mudras weavable. So you could go. Spinning heal > ten > gust slash > chi > aeolian edge > ninjutsu (raiton).

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But then you'd lose ninjutsus over the whole fight because it implies you delay each ninjutsu by at least 4-5sc.
This would just make people unable to weave them inbetween the same GCDs playing sub-optimally.

Only real way to make it fair to everyone would be to have it client sided but then the way this game works it'd open to a lot of cheating.

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Originally Posted by Shamox

But then you'd lose ninjutsus over the whole fight because it implies you delay each ninjutsu by at least 4-5sc.
This would just make people unable to weave them inbetween the same GCDs playing sub-optimally.

Only real way to make it fair to everyone would be to have it client sided but then the way this game works it'd open to a lot of cheating.

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No you wouldnt because if you read the rest of my post you'd see I said about making the mudras an instant recast or something while keeping ninjutsu on it's current 20 second timer.

So in doing this for example. Let's say your in a fight and you've just pressed ninjutsu and thrown raiton at a boss. So now your ninjutsu button is on a 20 second Cooldown like normal but your mudra buttons wouldn't be on cooldown.

So now when your ninjutsu cool down is at 7 or 8 seconds you could start pre-emptively weaving your next mudras between gcds ready for when ninjutsu comes off Cool down..

The result is you would still be throwing out ninjutsu at exactly the same rate every 20 seconds or so.

To be honest you'd could actually be throwing ninjutsu out fractionally faster as you could press the ninjutsu button the instant it comes off cool down instead of that small delay while you enter the mudras currently.

You would eliminate so many latency issues if mudras worked this way.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

No you wouldnt because if you read the rest of my post you'd see I said about making the mudras an instant recast or something while keeping ninjutsu on it's current 20 second timer.

So in doing this for example. Let's say your in a fight and you've just pressed ninjutsu and thrown raiton at a boss. So now your ninjutsu button is on a 20 second Cooldown like normal but your mudra buttons wouldn't be on cooldown.

So now when your ninjutsu cool down is at 7 or 8 seconds you could start pre-emptively weaving your next mudras between gcds ready for when ninjutsu comes off Cool down..

The result is you would still be throwing out ninjutsu at exactly the same rate every 20 seconds or so.

To be honest you'd could actually be throwing ninjutsu out fractionally faster as you could press the ninjutsu button the instant it comes off cool down instead of that small delay while you press the mudras after they come off cooldown.

You would eliminate so many latency issues if mudras worked this way.

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Yeah my bad that does make sense now, though you should still make them register faster because you'd definitely end up double weaving things that way which could still be a bad thing at a high latency I guess?

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Originally Posted by Shamox

Yeah my bad that does make sense now, though you should still make them register faster because you'd definitely end up double weaving things that way which could still be a bad thing at a high latency I guess?

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Registering faster would be nice but not sure how they could do that.
if they extended the mudra duration you could alleviate double weaving some what though. You typically get what 10 gcds between ninjutsu if you gave mudra a 15 second duration instead of the current 5 you then you have plenty of gcds to squeeze them in without having to double weave.. theres no way at all your ever going tp be weaving in everyone of those gcds. Even if everything is up at the same time.

If it was cliend sided it'd reduce the clipping by a ton because you'd simply get the delay from the actual ninjutsu animation as the mudra would go smooth in 1,5sc.

If trick attack gets nerfed by 5%, then ninjas would need more than just 20 potency on Gust Slash, Aeolian Edge, Armor Crush, and Shadow Fang. Add that to the fact that you want Dripping blades trait to be magical damage instead of physical and ninja's personal dps would tank a lot. Not to mention that you would need to weave mudras even more, since now, instead of using shuriken as filler, it would be raiton.

The ninki change would be boring. As a melee dps, one of the things you need to worry about is your uptime on the boss and maximizing it as much as possible. It's part of it.

And the assassinate change would see barely any use. Hellfrog is your filler ability, we do not need another one. Assassinate is fine as an execute. If something needs to change about it, it would be the brief animation lockout.

Other than the latency issues that ninja has, I would want for trick attack to get registered faster (Idk if it's just me, but that ability seems like it has more startup than the usual ability), aswell as just removing the TCJ's punishment for moving. I like the idea of a super buffed ninjutsu, but I don't want to stay rooted on the same place and get punished for that. I'm a ninja, a versatile, mobile fast paced melee dps, not a Black mage. I also would like for hyoton to have a real use. I voluntarily only used that ninjustu once: in deep dungeon.