Patch 4.3 Dungeon unhappiness

I'd understand the complaint if it was asking you to do the EX version.

But you only have to do the normal version. It's no different than being "forced" to do MSQ trials, or Hildi trials, or various other sidequests gated by trial content. And it is part of the story for 4 lords. If they didn't have this requirement, then you'd need to have a solo instance version of that to keep the same storyline as intended. Either way, you'd have to go beat Byakko because that's the story.

So, just do it?

And honestly at this point, Byakko normal is an instance you can be carried through by other people.

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Originally Posted by Keys2tkingdom

"But why would you want avoid such content, you filthy casual?", you ask. Because, my dear elitists, would you rather play with a player who can cope with the skill level required of the 8 and 24 man content, or would you rather play with a player who once he fails a mechanic a couple of times his mental state starts to worsen and negatively affect his in-game performance?

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I mean, it's story-mode content, so 95% of people won't care whether you can cope with the skill level or not? People get carried all the time through such content? The chances that someone is going to pitch a fit over a random player dying a couple times in a story-mode trial they've never done before is so slim. Hell, I've seen people die at the beginning of story-mode trials, ask not to be raised, and have their corpses carried through the fight with no one even bothering to more than grumble at them. Expecting Square to avoid putting any 8-man content into the main story line because you and a handful of other people personally dislike it is a truly wild degree of entitlement.

Byakko NM takes like ten minutes, tops. If you can't deal with a feeling of mild discomfort for ten short minutes of your life and then move on doing things how you like, I would really suggest you get a hobby that doesn't have as much potential to stress you out.

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Originally Posted by Keys2tkingdom

This argument falls apart one you realize that up to this update any primal or trial not directly related to the MSQ were 100% optional. You never HAD to do them to unlocked new dungeons.

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It doesn't fall flat. It's still optional. Swallows Compass is optional content too.

What is optional and what is not optional is based on it being tied into the main story. If you can get up to the current newest quest and finish it without doing said content, then it is optional. That is why the entire four lords story quest, with whatever dungeons, raids or trials they put in-between, is optional. So yeah...the argument still stands.

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Originally Posted by Keys2tkingdom

And I am a fairly casual player and I avoid 8 and 24 man content because I just don't find them as enjoyable as 4 man content. Mainly because of IRL physical and mental disabilities(...)

Since 4-man content allows for more room for error, I can more easily do what I need to do to without causing myself to selfdestruct over stress. So yes, the OP has a point. Optional primals and optional trials should be kept separate from dungeons so all players have an equal chance to do all content - whether or not the actually choose to do it should be left up to the player.

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Yet you are at a point in the storyline where it is actually relevant to you. You had to fight multiple primals on the way, including Shinryuu which is, I believe, the hardest normal trial since massive nerfing back before Heavensward even hit (though I did not play then so I'm going by what I heard here). I know that right now, Shinryuu normal have multiple instant-kill mechanics with varied means of avoiding them. Something that I do not recall ANY other primal (on normal mode) to have.

So yes. If you got to the point where the trial and dungeon being one after another is relevant...you are able to do it as well. Especially since the dungeon comes after people have already outgeared the trial by a fair amount, not at the same time.

Troll bait.

I'm not sure why someone would commit to an MMO - which frequently involves teaming up with other players to advance - if it stresses them out to such a great degree. There's plenty of single player games out there that may offer the sort of easy going environment that certain players seem to desire.

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Originally Posted by Keys2tkingdom

Since 4-man content allows for more room for error, I can more easily do what I need to do to without causing myself to selfdestruct over stress. So yes, the OP has a point. Optional primals and optional trials should be kept separate from dungeons so all players have an equal chance to do all content - whether or not the actually choose to do it should be left up to the player.

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Here's the rub, though.

Byakko normal is an extremely easy trial, especially when compared to Shinryu normal mode, or Tsukiyomi Normal Mode. There's basically nothing in that you super need to worry about, besides for maybe 1 mechanic that you might have to do. If people harass you in there, they're not people worth a damn in the first place and, in my experience, even for people dead on the floor 24/7, people don't care because the trial is simple enough to push through and lacks any enrage checks or required mechanics for the full party to exist. No one's saying "You need to do Extreme to do the side content" it's just the basic Normal mode that's about as punishing as a light slap on the wrist. DF is a grab bag, but odds are if you get people who are actually irate over a Normal Mode trial and your performance therein... then you can leave the instance and try to find better people (or ask in a FC/Linkshell and explain why you don't want to DF it).

Byakko NM doesn't lock MSQ content behind it. Shinryu, Lakshmi, Susano and Tsukiyomi do. And, in conjunction, each of those other trials listed also locks roulettes because you can't continue to Skalla without Shinryu down on Normal, and you can't progress to future MSQ dungeons if you never touch Tsukiyomi NM. (Both of which are significantly more difficult trials than Byakko NM is by comparison).

24 Mans are completely optional and do not gate or lock dungeons. Personally, I find them fun and by and large skill won't really matter in them to begin with. But I get not finding that fun, though they are also not a requirement to unlock anything other than the next 24 man raid. So, it can be ignored absolutely.

At the end of the day, the idea is to play the game to progress through the game. If they designed with the philosophy of "everything is unlocked immediately" that would've been the direction they went initially, but it clearly isn't their intention, and it is extremely clear that, since ARR, Trials will be included to progress to certain pieces of content (including MSQ related content, which is the only hard required option to continue going in the game). It's not new, it shouldn't be a surprise, it's been in the game since ARR's launch and should be anticipated and expected and, on the other hand, there are a lot of people who enjoy these inclusions (I find them fun and fairly exciting when they crop up in the story, and I would be pretty sad if they removed them).

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Originally Posted by Remyogic

Troll bait.

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Why because not everyone is in love with gated content? This is the same argument we will see next expansion when they gate the whole new expansion behind every quest since 2.0, or give SE more money because we don't give them enough. This fight was lost when they saw another way to make money at the end of 3.0. Early vague promises of no more gates were quickly scaled down/walked back.



A statement that I would prefer to see is "This is SE business model and the current fan base mostly enjoys gated content, live with it or move on." Just because it is not an idea you like doesn't make it troll. Unless past content makes you think that the OP has another agenda besides not enjoying the billionth gate in game.

This is worse than when I was forced to do the Water Temple before I could learn the Nocturne of Shadow! WHERE WAS MY FREEDOM TO CHOOSE, SHIGERU?!

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

-snip-

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What you said is actually quite offensive to me. Not everyone with disabilities - like me for example - can just cope with 10 minute of 8 man content and just move on.

Just 10 minutes of byakko NM was a nightmare for me that had me needing medication just to calm down afterwards because of the stress.

Hence why I stick to 4-man content, BECAUSE it doesn't stress me out.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

It doesn't fall flat. It's still optional. Swallows Compass is optional content too.

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I wasn't arguing that it wasn't or shouldn't be optional content. I was arguing that there shouldn't be optional 4-man dungeons locked behind the optional 8-man - or 24-man for that matter - primals or trials.

So yes the argument DOES fall flat. For players - like me - who rely on dungeon gear to make the MSQ ilvl requirements, to have their source of new gear effectively cut off by optional content they'd never play under normal circumstances is very much a reason to be mad - especially since this is the first time this has happened.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

-8 man trials argument-

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See above to see how 10 minutes in a NM primal leaves me. I only put up with the 8-man MSQ primals and trials because of the MSQ.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

-So play single-player games-

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I think you are misunderstanding something. I don't mind teaming up and playing with a group. I just stress over super-punishing mechanics that instantly kill me due to me only having minimum ilvl prevent me from pulling my own weight which leads into a point Alaray made about playing with people who can't handle if one player can't pull their own weight. I can't think of any NM primal I've ever cleared that DIDN'T have someone giving me flack for doing stuff wrong.

4-man dungeons mercifully lack the levels of punishment, so I can fairly easily pull my weight in them without meltdowns.

Thank you all for the comments you have posted. I have read them all. Allow me to reply and clarify:
1)I DO NOT TROLL...NEVER HAVE NEVER WILL.
2) I have played and loved FFXIV since I started in the PS# Beta version of Realm Reborn, and I will continue.
3) In all the years I have played...a Trial has NEVER BEEN A REQUIREMENT to open a dungeon, and to open a dungeon which unlocks the dungeon duty roulette.
4) Yes, we have trials...there is one in the current MSQ, and I will do it as I have done others even if I did not like them.
5) IT IS NOT a complaint of difficulty, it is what it is. IT IS A COMPLAINT OF REMOVING CHOICE, and locking a dungeon roulette behind what might otherwise be, and was introduced to us originally as OPTIONAL CONTENT, not requirement for anything...but now it is.
Thank you all very much for reading and responding. I do not disagree with any of the comments I have read here...except the troll labels.