You mention Sheltron and TBN, but you can use those skills on the WAR as well so I really don't see what you mean. Vengeance, Raw intution and Thrill also disagree with your statement of PLD and DRK having many short recast CDs, because in fact WAR is the definition of "tank with many strong, low recast CDs".Quote:
Originally Posted by Launched
Except Inner release is a thing, which gives you an effect that is better than Tempered will. WAR can also Onslaught any knock backs. You will almost always use Holmgang as a tank CD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Launched
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04-25-2018, 07:28 AMSaeno
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04-25-2018, 08:30 AMLaunchedMy point is that Sheltron and TBN allow PLD and DRK to take tankbusters while keeping other longer cooldowns for things like autoattacks and cleaves. In HW, Holmgang did 2 things: it could be used to replace a normal cooldown to survive a tankbuster, and it could be used to ignore mechanics that would usually force a swap. It was mostly used for the first option. The reason that was good was that it meant your cooldowns were up for other things, and PLD/DRK didn't really have any skills that did the same (PLD had Sheltron, but it was physical only). Now in SB, Sheltron can block everything and DRK got an incredibly strong shield. Sheltron is up every 20-25s, TBN is every 15s. My Sheltron is 28% with an i270 shield, that's almost identical to having Vengeance or Shadow Wall up for every single tankbuster, so why use Holmgang and drop to 1hp when I could use Sheltron and safely survive it? That's why Holmgang isn't as valuable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeno
I didn't say PLD/DRK got many low recast skills. They got one each but the recast is so incredibly short that they pretty much completely make up for WAR's shorter recasts/more skills.
The recent Reddit post on tank damage taken/mitigation also shows that WAR doesn't have any mitigation advantage. I'm not going to go read through it all and repeat it, but it showed that WAR+DRK groups generally took the most damage while PLD+DRK and PLD+WAR were pretty similar. PLD is the constant in groups with higher mitigation, not WAR.
I've only done O5S as WAR so I don't know how other fights line up, but IR doesn't seem to line up perfectly with knockbacks and it's not something you'll want to delay for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeno
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04-25-2018, 08:41 AMSaenoYou will not survive Dual cast Thunder lll with Sheltron. You will not survive Hyperdrive in normal Kefka with Sheltron. You sure as hell won't survive anything in Ultimate with Sheltron over Holmgang. Sheltron is also a single use skill that can be taken up with auto attacks while holmgang is a tried and true 6 seconds invul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Launched
The moves in question that you mentioned are skills that can be used on the WAR too. So Saying they help DRK and PLD mitigation alone isnt exactly true when they also help the WAR's mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Launched
That post used FFlogs damage taken as reference. This is fair because that's where most people take info from, but one thing FFlogs does is it accurately records how much damage is taken by each party member no matter what. This is an issue because when the WAR takes damage under Holmgang, they will obviously take the full brunt of the damage and that will be reflected on the WAR's damage taken, even though they could have have taken 999,999 damage and it would not have made a difference since the WAR used Holmgang. The same is true for Living dead. You take the full amount of damage. So obviously when you take the tank that makes damage intake into 0 with Hallowed ground, as well as Divine veil for the party, cover and intervention, the damage taken by each member will be much lower with a PLD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Launched
After you use Inner release inside of the ghost room, the next "All in the mind" happens exactly 100s after that phase ends. If you delay your inner release by a few globals, you will be in Inner release during the knock back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Launched
As it stands, WAR's cannot line up IR with the knock back in o7s but this is a non issue since Onslaught and Holmgang do the same thing for the WAR.
In O8s, the WAR can use Inner release for either (or both) of the knockbacks from Graven Image and Aero assault, but it is not effective DPS wise to do this. Often, the WAR will be covered by the PLD for the aero assault so they can IR under storms eye. -
04-25-2018, 09:53 AMDaulBan
Holm requiring a target is only really a problem in specific scenarios where you need to immunity something far away from a target (second stack in Chad) or something similar. In those cases its debilitating but the other two tanks can cover that easily so it's not a problem. It having the self-bind locked to it is a bit of a nuisance because you might have to use a really important ability (don't die) for something less good (don't fall off) but that's just the nature of the ability. For current content that's not really a problem, though it can be annoying/inconvenient to use Onslaught instead.
Realistically Holm suffers from similar issues to LD, though to a much lessor degree. Because it's not a true 'immunity' and instead a 'I don't die' button it still strains the healers to get you back up assuming that you aren't performing some action to save the tank 'naturally' (tank swap and WAR gets healed by already being used AoEs, regens, what have you). This obviously isn't as bad as LD, but it's still pretty bad in awkward circumstances where Hallowed shines much brighter, but that's a given. Holm is better than LD, but using it instead of normal cooldowns that put you in a better situation to survive further damage is a better choice. Most the time at least. -
04-25-2018, 12:32 PMCapn_Goggles
Holmgang is fine the way it is. Its usefulness is ultimately predicated on the type of content it's being used in, and the coordination of the group at large. The real issue is that living dead is worse but has triple the cooldown, and that's messed up.
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04-25-2018, 01:04 PMImDingDingSure, let's lock dark mind behind Grit with same logic. LolQuote:
Originally Posted by shao32
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04-25-2018, 01:11 PMAriel_ValmontHaving the stun sleep bind heavy knock back draw in nullification tied to inner release is a negative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeno
Tempered will is much more efficient when it comes to its use, as a WAR you have to choose between using Inner Release on CD or saving it for taking advantage of its defensive capabilities. Sure we have Onslaught, and in a perfect world we would always have it up and available, but sometimes it just doesnt work out that way.
Holmgang is overrated (the root can be just as detrimental as it can be beneficial) especially when compared to Hallowed Ground. Even if the CD is shorter. -
04-25-2018, 01:42 PMSaenoInner release is a DPS augment with an additional upside. It's intention is to increase your DPS, the immunities is purely an upside that has no place being there, but it's there. I don't see how that can be a negative when you already have so many different ways to answer knock backs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel_Valmont
Tempered will is more liberal than Inner release, sure, but Tempered will is the ONLY way for a PLD to prevent knock backs. Also, the issue with Tempered Will and similar abilities has always been that Tempered will does not work on most knock back moves, like Sephirot's knock backs. This isnt the case with Gap closers like Corps-A-Corps since you are still following the rules of the Knock back, but you're using a Gap closer to cheese the knock back. You say WAR's may not have Onslaught, but it's a skill that you do not use often outside of Inner release since it is a DPS loss, and it also has a mere 15 second recase. I fail to see how "it doesnt work out that way". Especially when WAR has THREE different answers to knock backs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel_Valmont
You can use Holmgang two additional times before Hallowed can be used 2 times. If you use Hallowed purely for tank damage, which is often the only use it has, it will have effectively served the same purpose as Holmgang except Holmgang was used far more. I fail to see how Holmgang is in any was "overrated" when compared to Hallowed Ground of all CD's. Hallowed Ground is easily the most overrated CD in the game. It's great when it's up, but it's up every 7 minutes and that is really awful compared to Holmgang.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel_Valmont
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04-25-2018, 03:26 PMAriel_ValmontThat’s the negative, I get that IR is a DPS ability, and it’s great that WAR has 3 (?situationally dependent?) Knock-back counters, but we seem to be in agreement, that saving IR for that is not worth it in most cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeno
And while cheesing knock-backs with a Gap Closer can be fun, I personally prefer the Method gained by Tempered Will (we could probably shorten the CD on this, I am aware it’s PLD only Knockback Counter), which is Staying put.
It says in the tool tip for Tempered Will, it applies to “most” Knock-backs, and from my experience most seems to be the case.
You will also notice the tool tip for Holmgang says nothing about Nullifying knock-backs, just that it binds both the caster and the target. It has been my experience with Holmgang that the Knock-back more often than not, punts me, and then I am just bound away from the target until the timer on Holmgang falls off. -
04-25-2018, 03:29 PMAriel_Valmont
I am not saying that Holmgang isn’t a good skill, or that it’s not useful, but it’s definitely not OP. I personally find Hallowed Ground, even with its long CD, more useful than Holmgang. I also find WAR more fun to play, but appreciate the diversity of both Jobs.
Holmgang is fine as is, I personally would rather see them separate the abilities in Inner Release, Or flip the Actions tied to the stances on Equilibrium.