Thoughts on what the game needs to do

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Ultimate is a failure because it was content 99% of players watched others try instead of be motivated to do. The streaming argument is dumb, because it did worse to raise visibility then Netflix's "Daddy of Light" series, which isn't even game content. It literally fell off a cliff in terms of community posts or mentions after the initial race, and neither here nor reddit ever sees any real posts about it one way or the other. It may have worked for some of the playerbase, though it need to be pointed out in nearly burned some of the world firsters out, and from what i understand needed add ons to even beat due to nael's voice mechanic.

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So...basically, you're just making assumptions about it, having not tried the content yourself, labeling it a failure even though Ultimate served the purpose which was to give the top-level players some kind of content catered specifically for them? That doesn't sound like a failure to me. It's meant for hardcore players. It was practically tailor made for the world first race. Naturally, there are hardly any posts about it because the excitement died down. The only thing you get out of Ultimate is having bragging rights, which was the other point of the content in the first place. It doesn't need to be pointed out that some of the world firsters were nearly burnt out, because it is irrelevant. Many of those who were in the race will be taking on the Ultima Weapon. And what does add ons even have to do with your argument in the first place?

This whole post is a failure.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

So...basically, you're just making assumptions about it, having not tried the content yourself, labeling it a failure even though Ultimate served the purpose which was to give the top-level players some kind of content catered specifically for them? That doesn't sound like a failure to me. It's meant for hardcore players. It was practically tailor made for the world first race. Naturally, there are hardly any posts about it because the excitement died down. The only thing you get out of Ultimate is having bragging rights, which was the other point of the content in the first place. It doesn't need to be pointed out that some of the world firsters were nearly burnt out, because it is irrelevant. Many of those who were in the race will be taking on the Ultima Weapon. And what does add ons even have to do with your argument in the first place?

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I don't have time to spend on ultimate fights and probably not even the stamina for them, but damn if I'm happy that there that something that one can dream, ultimate is THE endgame, it gave usefulness to raid gear for once, it's that something that ppl can look up and that something that those that cleared can wear with pride

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I don't have time to spend on ultimate fights and probably not even the stamina for them, but damn if I'm happy that there that something that one can dream, ultimate is THE endgame, it gave usefulness to raid gear for once, it's that something that ppl can look up and that something that those that cleared can wear with pride

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Indeed. I happen to agree with Riyah's other points, but that one stuck out to me because really, the Ultimate series is doing exactly what it is meant to do - cater to the hardcores and give them a challenge until they beat it. It is not meant for PUGs, it is not meant for midcore statics. It's meant specifically for elite players. And I appreciate that it's serving this purpose.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I don't have time to spend on ultimate fights and probably not even the stamina for them, but damn if I'm happy that there that something that one can dream, ultimate is THE endgame, it gave usefulness to raid gear for once, it's that something that ppl can look up and that something that those that cleared can wear with pride

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Exactly. This wasn't for your average Joe to tackle. This was designed for one thing and one thing only. The super hardcore. Then, with the races and stuff, it threw a lot of hype behind it on Twitch and YouTube. It got people genuinely excited. It showed there was something for the super hardcore. Something if you really want to go all out, you can sink your teeth into. By all accounts, it was a success. It got a lot of attention on streaming sites. It got the super hardcore going for it. The elite basically made an eSports style tournament out of it. That generates hype by the bucketload and makes FFXIV look more interesting.

It didn't generate any long term hype. It didn't attract or create any form of e-sports tournament that wasn't already there; people reacted to it just the same as virtually every other world first race we had in FFXIV's recent history. It just returned to the same amount of time it took people to world-first Gordias, except this time, no one bothered to try it except the world firsters, and people instead just said "oh, it's only for the 0.001%."

No one came here in any real numbers to raid in this game because of it, no one is really recruiting for it (i see barely 2-3 pfs even mentioning it per day per data center) and all the world firsters either went back into hibernation, or are scum who are trying to sell the runs using means that violate tos (unless you think people can seven man that content as opposed to log in as a players account, and are not doing it for real life cash) so yeah, protest all you like, i say its a failure and it is.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Ultimate is a failure because it was content 99% of players watched others try instead of be motivated to do. The streaming argument is dumb, because it did worse to raise visibility then Netflix's "Daddy of Light" series, which isn't even game content. It literally fell off a cliff in terms of community posts or mentions after the initial race, and neither here nor reddit ever sees any real posts about it one way or the other. It may have worked for some of the playerbase, though it need to be pointed out in nearly burned some of the world firsters out, and from what i understand needed add ons to even beat due to nael's voice mechanic. (being unable to see his callouts)

But my point in listing those is that you simply cannot rely on content that targets such a tiny part of the playerbase, because it dies as fast as mainstream content while reaching far less people and keeping them satisfied. You can't make a game where we all talk about what tiny percentages of the playerbase actually do, which is what this niche content is ending up being. It just ends up beign the same 2-week shelf life we always get, but the difference is most people won't even see that from it.

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Someone doesn't understand Twitch.

Fortnight, arguably the most popular game in the entire industry currently, owes a massive portion of its success to Twitch visibility. In fact, Twitch has become so popular, every company—Nintendo notwithstanding—has freely allowed gamers to stream their content purely due to the free advertisement. Do you think Square Enix would invite MrHappy, Mizzteq and a slew of other notable Youtubers if they didn't believe their respective videos generated income? Ultimate saw the highest viewership FFXIV has ever witnessed on any media platform. E-Sports itself proves, while people may lack interest or the necessarily to participate in extremely difficult content themselves, they will watch others do it. Now if Ultima Ultimate cannot retain a similar viewership, you can begin to argue this may have been a one hit wonder. But as of right now, Ultimate did precisely what it set out to do. Keep in mind, it's completely recycled assets, thus costing very little to produce compared to a whole new instance.

Replay has largely failed because it has a slew of restrictions. Currently, you can only record Byakko EX, of which no one inclined to record themselves will remotely care about. Forcing players back to the inn room, saving only three encounters (not lockouts) and necessitating everyone agree beforehand all contribute heavily to its, frankly, laughably poor implementation. It could be a decent feature, if the devs bothered with it.

Otherwise, I can, surprisingly, agree with some of your other points. That being said, you grossly underestimate the impact more difficult content has. If the devs focused exclusively on content no more difficult than say Rabanastre. The game would die. A theme park MMO's entire purpose is catering towards multiple demographics. Have they focused too much on niche content? One could certainly argue so, especially with Perform and the decidedly poor reception of PvP. But replacing either with yet another mindless dungeon wouldn't have changed a thing.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

people reacted to it just the same as virtually every other world first race we had in FFXIV's recent history

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This post shows how little you understand. World First viewership peaks at approximately 1,400 people, and lasts less than 5-6 hours. Ultimate reached 6,000+ over the span of two weeks. Even MrHappy and Xeno streaming at the same time didn't fragment their viewership. Meanwhile, 5150 received a sponsorship deal due to how much attention their stream received from Western audiences despite none of them speaking a word of English. FFXIV, itself, reached over 10,000 concurrent views—the highest every in its five year history by a mile.

If that's a failure, SE can only hope Ultima Ultimate fails spectacularly.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

3. You cannot design solely for the JP playerbase or expect all players to act the same way.

Things like Raid replay fail because they don't add functionality to western players experiences, even if they fill the niche for JP audiences who don't have as robust third party support.

You also have to realize westerners act differently. We have different problems and may need different measures taken. And we are the majority of this game's market; you would lose 2/3rds or so of revenue if we didn't exist.

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Farming raids for months on end after they come out is basically the formula of almost every Western MMO on the market. So I'm not sure at all why you think this is a Japanese thing that western players would not like.

That said... I find the insinuation here one that smacks of 'privilege' - to assume that a Japanese company has to design for Americans instead of Japanese players is just... odd.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Someone doesn't understand Twitch. .

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Twitch is useless unless the game can be played free or its a game people dont want to pay for but do want to watch. Virtually all of the top 20 games are F2P, and the topmost game is God of War for Ps4, which is a single player story game that already got great reviews; so people are essentially watching others do it. If you look at the games people play seriously or buy that aren't free, it's very grim; only 30ish total have more than 5k watchers, and many hover at 500-600, including Nintendo greats like Botw and Splatoon 2. EVE online is barely 500 watchers. Cuphead has something like 150.

Twitch really relies on a certain genre of game, and a hot game, to get anything more than token watchers. FFXIV is never going to be more of a blip on its radar, and trying to chase the cheapskate market never works.

(oh, and fornite became popular only because made a free game, it ripped off pUBG and fixed its main problem; computers can actually run it with decent performance. Fortnite was a massive failure in its first incarnation, as a co-op builder zombie defense game. )

As for mindless dungeon, it doesnt have to be that. they have to make content that all people should do. If they think hard content will work, than that's what they should do. The goal is that content needs to reach everyone, not that you get to do ultimate while your FC stands around afk all the time in the fc house chatting on discord and playing minecraft.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

No one came here in any real numbers to raid in this game because of it, no one is really recruiting for it (i see barely 2-3 pfs even mentioning it per day per data center) and all the world firsters either went back into hibernation, or are scum who are trying to sell the runs using means that violate tos (unless you think people can seven man that content as opposed to log in as a players account, and are not doing it for real life cash) so yeah, protest all you like, i say its a failure and it is.

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Like Bourne said, you don't understand Twitch. Even that fleet of hype is going to have a positive effect on the game. It's like any other tournament. The world firsters have finished the tournament now, so it dies down until the next one. But the next one will most likely pull the same if not more. Not everything needs to be for the casuals. Gordias failed because it was too hardcore for the midcore leaving them with almost nothing. Now the midcore have the Savage. And, you say only the 0.001%... NEST, a very much casual static are attempting it. They're going at it (looking forward to seeing that video btw). But if you refuse to serve the hardcore, they will leave. And with them the eSports that carries these games. Square Enix do right to cater some stuff for them. Even if they're recycled assets.