Inconsistencies with the astrologian questline and the Durendaire family

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Originally Posted by Iscah

- again, if he has two other adult sons, why is he looking "elsewhere"? (unless it's 'elsewhere' than the very narrow field of one specific person, but it's not the impression I get from that phrasing.) *Can* he even look elsewhere? It's a hereditary title and has to go down the family line, doesn't it?

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For the how, adoption and other relatives (cousins, nephews, etc) are possible options. We don't know exactly how succession works here.

As for the why, any number of reasons. We already know that Janne doesn't really want the title, and his family probably doesn't want to give it to him either (lack of interest, involvement in that Sharlayan nonsense, etc.) If that's also true of the presumed middle son then it's not hard to see why the count would start looking for alternatives.


P.S. Hey Jess :)

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Originally Posted by Vidu

[German translation]

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Thanks for that! So there's variation in the translations and exactly what might be implied by the wording. I did suspect that might be the case, but it's hard to tell without having access to multiple scripts (and the ability to read them!).

I wonder how the translation process works. Do the translators have a solid 'lore reference' to work with or do they just get handed that one story's script, where a deliberately-vague phrasing might get altered in the translation?


Overall I guess we'll get an answer to this eventually, as it's pretty clearly a plotline set to develop in the future, but I hope I don't have to wait for future expansions to find out what's going on... If nothing else, the correct timeline of the quest backstory needs clearing up.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

P.S. Hey Jess :)

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*waves* :D

Oda and Koji are basically the two in-charge of the lore with a few others. Koji has said that each localization team is in charge of the flavors put into the game for their language. Sadly this isn't the first time there has been these kinds of differences. There are times also when the difference is there due to a word having a different meaning or not having an equal in the language it's being translated into. Thankfully answers to these types of questions tend to be answered during a between two ferns bits at fan fests and conventions like Pax.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Koji has said that each localization team is in charge of the flavors put into the game for their language. Sadly this isn't the first time there has been these kinds of differences.

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If this is what the majority of the difference in localization amounts to, then we are really, really spoiled. As far as I can tell, FFXIV has yet to make any major changes to plot development, world building, or lore concepts between localizations. Which is pretty impressive given the volume of words that have to be translated.

Reading up on some of the major differences in FFXV between the Japanesse and English localization is very, very different then reading up on the differences in FFXIV... unfortunately for FFXV...

When I mean flavors it tends to be npc speech bubbles or all the swearing. One major difference is what Ilberd says during our fight with him. For the English version he says sloppy while if I remember right others said he didn't say something so facepalm. Or the bath house in Kugane where that hyur says stupid Roegadens is different in other languages. I do know that in the Japanese version the Anti Tower is named something else because the meaning would be really negative or something. Haurchefaunt is an example where his whole personality is more flamboyant in the Japanese version. Sometimes they come up with a cool name for something that doesn't sound as cool in other languages so again they have to brain storm.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

If this is what the majority of the difference in localization amounts to, then we are really, really spoiled. As far as I can tell, FFXIV has yet to make any major changes to plot development, world building, or lore concepts between localizations. Which is pretty impressive given the volume of words that have to be translated.

Reading up on some of the major differences in FFXV between the Japanesse and English localization is very, very different then reading up on the differences in FFXIV... unfortunately for FFXV...

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I kinda always expected it not to be "to bad" in FFXIV, but I consider myself really lucky to be able to understand both the german and the english version to get different perspectives on storylines and such, even if they're just slight differences.
Translating - or rather localisating - is hard work obviously, since most often you just wont "catch" the meaning with a literal translation or a literal translation isnt even possible... well, I dont think I really need to tell you guys that though...

As far as I am aware though the german version tends to be closer to the japanese one when it comes to Final Fantasy games - I wont vouch for this being the case with FFXIV because I dont have that much insight there (and would expect Koji to have an eye on that to be honest), but most often the english version tends to (slightly) re-write stuff to appeal more to the american audience, while the german version tries to stay closer to the japanese version.

(I really noticed that when playing FFX and did some research back then - my english was pretty bad at that time, but the german version only came with subtitles, not german voice acting. And even I couldnt help notice that a character saying "mhm" couldnt possibly translate to the two lines of subtitles on my screen - or the other way around: A character saying two sentences and the subtitles being one word. I'm exaggerating a little, but you get the idea. Most noticeable is probably the end, when Yuna says "I love you" to Tidus before he disappears. Both in japanese and in german she actually says "Thank you" - but to appeal to the american audience, they apparently wanted to put more weight on that romance... but I disgress here...)

Having gone through ARR again on an alt character, a few things to add on the Durendaire family (because I need to put them somewhere):

• I can see how people would have interpreted Drillemont as a Durendaire family member - being a lord and on equal authority with Lords Francel and Haurchefant, although perhaps that's in their position as outpost commanders rather than nobles. (I'd taken it the other way on my first time through, since Francel is specifically pointed out as a noble so I assumed Haurchefant wasn't, all the way until Heavensward when we met his father the count.)
  
• A lot of minor Coerthan NPCs have white eyes so it can't be used for theorising if random people are relatives (unless they all are)
  
• That said, I did find two other people who could be part of the family:
  
• a knight called Berengeoit at Whitebrim, who boasts about being "born into such a house as mine" and is wearing a Durendaire shield
  
• Lord Portelaine "of House Durendaire" (as someone refers to him in one of the Lv40+ quests) at the Observatorium. Could just be working for them like Drillemont is, but I'm not sure if he was ever referred to as being of the House or only of Whitebrim Front. (Would have to go through it *again* to check, but I do have a second alt that's not there yet....) He doesn't resemble the other family members, not that it's a guarantee of anything. Maybe Forlemort is a blood relative of them after all.
• edit to add: checked the character models in Garland Tools' NPC database, and Portelaine does have the same hair colour as Carvallain and Jannequinard (or rather they all have different shades from the same line of reds). Plus, for what it's worth, he's in the same room as Carrilaut who gives the critical hint about the count's missing son having been attacked by pirates. If the 'unidentified' brother is anywhere in the game already, I think he'd be a safe bet.

I thought there was more information I'd picked up when playing the quest, but couldn't find it later - and indeed there is! Having gotten my second character to Ishgard and signed up to the astrologians' guild, there's some dialogue I couldn't find in Garland Tools because it's not part of the quest, and I'm not sure where else it would be. I looked up the NPC but he doesn't have any quests or dialogue listed.

Guillestet - the guild's "what do you do here?" NPC - gives some background on Jannequinard as well as the guild itself (later replaced with different dialogue and not including this information):
https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...2d4680c549.jpg

Relevant points:

• Jannequinard spent a year in Sharlayan.
• He is the second son of the count (so that's the information you have prior to Forlemort letting it slip that there's a third brother)
• He's "older than [Guillestet's] father", and Guillestet is an adult - so at least around twenty, going by the lorebook saying that's the age Elezen have their 'growth spurt'. And his father is presumably at least forty, or older if the age gap between the counts and their eldest sons (29, 26, 25 years) is typical. Even without that extra lore-trivia, it's clearly implying that Janne is not young and is probably at least in his forties.

So that's the information you get as you're just starting the guild quest and getting your first impression of Jannequinard, backed up by the journal describing him as "aged".

I'm leaning back towards my "details got mistranslated and Janne is actually Charlemend's brother" theory.... but will have to see if my post in the Localisation forum gets an official response.

Greetings!

And apologies for getting to this issue so late! I will not bore you with the usual “OMG IT’S SO BUSY HERE I BARELY HAVE TIME TO EAT MY TACOS” attempt to explain why the reply took so long, and instead move right into explaining what exactly went wrong...

All ye who dare enter: the following is a mess more tangled than a bowl of spaghetti made by Eminem’s mom. For the abridged version, see the bottom of this reply.

Also, this goes without saying but AST SPOILERS AHEAD.

Here we go...

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Originally Posted by Iscah

1. whether the lorebook description of the AST plotline (in Leveva and Jannequinard's profiles) is simply incorrect, or actually intended to overwrite the timeline established in the game

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The lorebook is correct. Hooray! The quest, unfortunately, is littered with several inaccuracies. :( Actually, it’s just a few inaccuracies, but they are repeated over and over (and over and over and over and over). And over. The answers to the following points will make clear what those inaccuracies were, and just how far-reaching they ended up being.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

2. Jannequinard's correct age, given that the game script implies he must be older than his lorebook-given age of 32, possibly by ten or twenty years

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Jannequinard’s correct age is, as the lorebook states, 32.

The confusion here (something that ties to a lot of plot points) is that in the quests, Janne mentions that he studied in Sharlayan (around) 20 summers ago. This is actually off by a few years. The REAL timeline (6th Astral Era) is as follows:

1545: Jannequinnard is born

1557: (Despite some believing they should stay) The Forum decides that it’s time to make the move back to Sharlayan. They begin the slow preparation process (which ultimately takes 5 years).

1560: Jannequinard (at the age of 15) is sent to Sharlayan to be educated. For the next 1.5 years (the lorebook says “for several moons”...when in fact it’s between 16-18 moons--a “big” several, I know) he studies astrology (among other things) at the Studium. Here he meets Rufin and they become friends (Rufin is several years older than Janne, but takes the young noble under his wing).

1561: Rufin marries his school sweetheart and Lady Byrde gives birth to their daughter, Leveva...but dies in childbirth. Worried of her safety in the tumultuous Eorzea, Rufin entrusts care of Leveva to his aunt (who resides in Old Sharlayan).

1562: Sharlayan exodus begins. Janne must return to Ishgard. Rufin decides he’ll go with his young friend (now 17) and together they will spread the word of Sharlayan astrology across the See. He plans on doing this for a year or so, and then returning to Old Sharlayan later to be with daughter. Rufin is killed (at former classmate Sevestre’s* command) before the year is out.

*Sevestre was a classmate of Rufin at the Studium, but was slightly older and had left the Studium by the time that Janne came to Sharlayan, going on to make a name for himself in political circles. During his early years as a politician, he worked hard to quell the voices of those Sharlayans who wished to stay in Eorzea and continue to spread their nation’s knowledge (an action he and the Bibliothecs deemed wrong). Sevestre did NOT use Rufin's death to convince the Forum to approve the exodus, but he DID use it to try and silence those who tried to stop the exodus. He also DEFINITELY used it to convince the Forum that the plebs of Eorzea were not deserving of Sharlayan knowledge.

Leveva’s correct age is 16. Kyokuho is merely spitballing when he claims she is around 20.

SO, WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?
Janne was in Sharlayan as far back as 17 years ago...and if you stretch it, 17 could be argued to fall within the realm of “around 20.” Yeah, I know. BS. I fully agree that this is more confusing that it needs to be. I also realize that there are many instances that say “more than 20,” which would be straight up incorrect. A culling of the instances where “twenty” appears (except instances that are supposed to be vague) is required, with the number being changed to 15 or something equivalent. The one instance where Janne says he’s been “a student of the astromantic arts for more than thirty summers,” is supposed to be him embellishing a tad (as is his wont), so this will remain.

Two lines that suggest Sevestre used Rufin's death to convince the Forum to go through with the exodus will also have to be amended.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

- (late edit): student astrologian Guillestet (an adult) describes Jannequinard as being "older than [his] father"

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This will be tweaked as well, to make him almost as old as his father (FFXIV NPCs are surprisingly younger than you (and often I) think).

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Originally Posted by Iscah

3. confirmation of the Durendaire family tree, given that all versions seem to give different accounts of the future succession - in briefest form:
- Jannequinard's alternating references to being second or third in line (and Forlemort's indication there are three brothers)
- AST Lv50: Janne's apparently-not-missing older brother had all the responsibility of being the next count
- Lorebook: succession is unclear and the count will have to remarry to produce another heir
- Is Jannequinard supposed to be Carvallain's brother, or Charlemend's?

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TRUTH:
Charlemend (59) had one son, (now known as) Carvallain (34), who was lost at sea 20 years ago (when only 14) and presumed dead. Dead, however, he was not. He joined the very pirates who had scuttled his ship, quickly abandoning his name and birthright. Why did the pirates welcome him to their crew and not just ransom him? 1. He had deep knowledge of the stars, making him a skilled navigator—something the Kraken’s Arms just happened to be lacking at the time. 2. Carvallain didn’t want to go back.

TRUTH:
Jannequinard is not Count Durendaire’s third son. He is, however, third (or second, depending on whether or not you believe Carvellain will ever come back) in line to the countship.

This was a misinterpretation on my part of the House Durendaire line of succession (I assumed him to be a son). Carvallain was the only true heir (being the firstborn son). So, when he was presumed dead, the House had to define a line of succession in case the count passed before producing another son (which he has yet to do, though at 59, time’s running out). Charlemend’s oldest nephew (Janne's cousin) was positioned first in line, and work began preparing him for rule of the house. The remaining nephews (Jannequinard included) saw a bump in their status (some even earning the title “viscount”), but it was really only the oldest nephew that began getting all the extra attention.

TRUTH:
Chief Astrologian Forlemort does carry Durendaire blood, but is only a distant relative to Jannequinard. Janne refers to him as “mine uncle” or “nuncle” not because Forlemort is actually his father’s brother. It is a more generic term of affection/loose relation...and just happens to be one that Forlemort hates--something definitely not lost on Jannequinard).

A just for giggles:
Lord Portelaine (stationed at the Observatory) is a (low ranking) member of House Durendaire and distant relative to Jannequinard (most likely through marriage).

SO, WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?
All instances that state Jannequinard is Charlemend’s son will be changed to nephew
All instances that state Jannequinard’s older brother is the heir will be changed to cousin
Instances where Forlemont refers to Janne as his nephew will have to be fixed (to prevent confusing with Charlemend)

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Originally Posted by Iscah

4. Not directly related to the timeline snarl, but at what point in the AST backstory is Carvallain supposed to have run away? Dialogue in the Limsa episode of the AST quest indicates he finds Leveva 'familiar', which suggests he might have met Rufin when he accompanied Janne back to Ishgard. But the timing would have to be fairly tight on that fitting together (he vanished twenty years ago and the AST backstory was "almost twenty" years ago... unless the fifteen-years-ago lorebook account is now supposed to be canon).

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Before Carvallain ran away from his home, he was the heir to the Durendaire line, and therefore was expected to learn all manner of subjects. As House Durenadaire was in charge of the Observatory in the southern highlands, Carvallain spent several moons studying Ishgardian astrology (learning of the Dragon Star and whatnot). Unlike the his other studies, he enjoyed it greatly, and this was where he learned of navigation...and ties into his line: “It has been many summers, but there was a time when I, too, dreamed of reading the stars.” So, AST timeline-wise, this would have been long before even Janne traveled to Sharlayan to begin his studies. As for Janne finding Leveva familiar, well...let’s just say that he does.

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tl;dr

★ Jannequinard is 32 (not in his 50s)
★ Jannequinard started stydying in Sharlayan 17 years ago and left 15 years ago (not 20)
★ Leveva is 16 (not 19 or 20)
★ Jannequinard is not second/third son of House Durendaire, but second/third in line of succession (he is actually the son of the current count’s sibling = nephew)
★ Forlemort is a blood-member of House Durendaire, but only loosely related to Jannequinard
★ Carvallain does not know Rufin. He studied astrology at the Observatorium before he ran away from home

Conclusion:
The lore book is fine, but several IDs over the series of AST quests will have to be changed. 40 IDs have been tweaked so far, but I will have our QA team check the quests again, as well, so that number may rise. Many of those have been critical, but some have been adjusted simply to make things a bit clearer.

/phew

First, I would like to apologize for the mass confusion here. The mistakes are mine and mine alone, and I am grateful that with FFXIV being an online game with frequent updates, I get the rare opportunity to amend them.

And second, I would like to give a MASSIVE, MASSIVE thanks to Iscah who took the time to document all the inconsistencies (in exact detail), and continued to press the issue until we finally had the opportunity to address it. Your work documenting everything made my job confirming the mistakes all that smoother. Your passion is truly appreciated and this contribution will not be forgotten.

If there is anything that we didn’t manage to address, please let us know, and we’ll look into it!

Thank you again!

Fernehalwes :cool:

(Great Oschon's Raven, Iscah keeping a meticulous inventory of this one finally paid off!)

WHEW! I knew it'd gone askew and started to snowball and I knew Iscah had great gasp on it, but to unpack all that must have been a journey (and a few internal email chains).

Thank you as always writing teams, for continuing to see threads like these in a CHALLENGE ACCEPTED kind of light, and spending precious dev. time on what I'm sure is increasingly intricate maintenance of the high standard you've all set for the world setting.


EDIT: One nuance I'm unsure about if anyone has any better information while I go digging: the Studium is (almost?) always referred to as being geographically situated in Old Sharlayan. There was also a branch in the colony, too, at the time, then, yes? (This came up not two days ago when I was asked about Y'mhitra being a "native" of Sharlayan and whether the Y tribe had relocated to the Old World, lol.)

((Note to Self: If it was called the Forum back then, pretend Y'shtola didn't call it the Sharlayan Council in Never the Twain Shall Meet from now on and fix all references to it based on that citation.))