Let's Talk about The Meta - And How We Should Dismantle It from the Job(s) Up

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

A lot of good points already from others, it seems; that I'm glad about. Though, what can be done for the jobs that are left out? Considering SMN, MNK, SAM, and BLM are all left out completely, what can be done to even the playing field for these four jobs? Also, there's a statement I want to ask about regarding BLM from Yoshida's recent Q/A Live Letter(translated by iluna minori in the Reddit XIV Discord:

To give BLM any abilities to use party utility is going to break BLM's job identity badly.
First of all, by doing so, if they're giving BLM utility, they're going to nerf BLM's DPS very hard to compensate(edited)
and Yoshida is urging people to stop being too absorbed into thinking party utility is everything for a job.

Why does he think this?

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Simple, the meta is something that you should care for as a group if you're competing for faster kills, and while their synergy makes all the jobs work really well together, it takes nothing away from other jobs when you're aiming to do what they (the developers) wanted you to: play the content. The meta matters when you want to min/max your play style and some meta jobs can't achieve it without synergy.

The only thing that would strengthen these jobs is adding alternatives to "a meta" an alternative synergy. Like some discussion has been talked in the MNK threads about MNK helping castrers with DK giving a magic res down. Maybe DRK buffing magic damage. MNK has always been a solid class, but the people within the meta scene didn't see it that way because of its "lack of contribution" in 3.0, Brotherhood has changed that slightly but not by much, imo. SMN was a joke before 3.0 because of how their damage scaled. After that stepping stone into 3.0 it has great DPS both in AoE and ST scnearios (though recent nerf was a bit unecessary) while being a great support with raises and devotion. SAM and BLM still have great personal output and don't depend on another job in their team to achieve their results (even though, being honest, are much lower than they should be)

And that's what Yoshi is trying to convey, play the job you want because the job you pick is not going to be bad. There's plenty of times where people who raid say they prefer a non meta job player that knows the fight well vs a meta job player who dies every 3 AoEs.

What exactly do you mean party utility (I'm really asking here ><' )? Cause I main BLM, and the only problem I'm getting is needing to dodge too much that I can barely cast my rotation (and, I'll admit, that might mean that I have a poor rotation).

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Originally Posted by Sorciechan

What exactly do you mean party utility (I'm really asking here ><' )? Cause I main BLM, and the only problem I'm getting is needing to dodge too much that I can barely cast my rotation (and, I'll admit, that might mean that I have a poor rotation).

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I don't think that's about poor rotations. It's the disadvantage to playing caster, and the reason I changed to melee. :)

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Originally Posted by Sorciechan

What exactly do you mean party utility (I'm really asking here ><' )? Cause I main BLM, and the only problem I'm getting is needing to dodge too much that I can barely cast my rotation (and, I'll admit, that might mean that I have a poor rotation).

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"Party utility" in this sense largely means abilities from one job that buff the damage output of other jobs, but it can also mean abilities that let a job assist another job with something else (PLD's Intervention letting a WAR/DRK maintank save a cooldown comes to mind). So this would be things like Trick Attack, DRG's Disembowel, SMN's Devotion, MNK Brotherhood etc.

BLM used to have this in baseline Apocatastasis but it was made a role skill so there's that. (It also didn't increase anybody's DPS so people tended not to care about it as much.)

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Originally Posted by Sorciechan

What exactly do you mean party utility (I'm really asking here ><' )? Cause I main BLM, and the only problem I'm getting is needing to dodge too much that I can barely cast my rotation (and, I'll admit, that might mean that I have a poor rotation).

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Party utility is something that a job can offer that benefits a group as a whole. Generally, these are party buffs, such as Battle Voice, Battle Litany, Trick Attack, Balance, etc., but utility can also take the form of abilities such as Refresh (MP regeneration), Palisade (free tank cooldown for physical damage), Shadewalker/Smokescreen (enmity management skills; the first one gives a fraction of personal enmity to the marked target, the latter significantly reduces the enmity of a marked target), or Divine Veil/Shake It Off (party shields at virtually minimal cost to the PLD/WAR using it).

All the jobs in the current meta are in the meta because they offer utility, and because they synergize well (a lot of the buff windows line up with one another—Battle Voice/Battle Litany are both on 3-minute cooldowns and will always line up with one another; additionally they will always line up with Trick Attack, which is every minute); a lot of the jobs not in the meta are not in it because they do not offer utility. Groups that run the meta like the utility of things like Battle Litany, Battle Voice, Trick Attack, AST cards, Shadewalker/Smokescreen, so they are more likely to take the jobs that offer that utility over jobs that do not.


As for BLM, it is the most difficult job to optimize in any fight that requires a lot of moving for mechanics, and that just comes from the design of the job (it is not designed with a lot of mobility in mind). The developers have been trying to make things easier on BLMs with regards to movement, but it is still the hardest to master in higher-end content, job balancing issues aside, because it requires you to basically stand still as much as possible.

That would explain me trying so dang hard not to switch my main to RDM (my gosh, it is so versatile).

AAhhh, yeah, when I was raiding, I was asked to use that skill.

...well, on the one hand, BLM's have it hard enough making sure to keep a high dps rotation while staying alive dodging stuff, so I can see why it won't happen.

...then again, I keep thinking how cool it would be if Enochian was party wide. :) (well, for casters, at least)

Edit: Hyo beat me to it. I play WHM sometimes. Brrr, yeah, I don't want that spreading to BLM.

The obsessive speed run focus probably ought to be nipped in the bud to promote a friendlier player community and lessen the impact of "meta" isms.

Sadly, in reality it seems to be accelerating. Heck, I'm seeing HW bird farms ask for as high as i325 now in addition to single tanking. If you're a tank main like me who hasn't been actively gearing alt jobs (right now my best is summoner at i316, and I stink like goobbue sneezes at SMN)? Unngggghhhhh.

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Originally Posted by Amarande

The obsessive speed run focus probably ought to be nipped in the bud to promote a friendlier player community and lessen the impact of "meta" isms.

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I disagree. Not everyone demands the meta; only the people that want and enjoy the optimization that comes from it does. Why should people that enjoy optimization be denied what they like?

As for old bird farms, people ask for single tank/single healer because there’s no real need to take two now that you can unsync them (in the case of some fights, there was never any need for two tanks when the fight was relevant)—you just blow straight through the content at this point. I’m surprised to hear a tank complaining about not being able to get into a group, especially when it’s usually groups that are waiting for tank/healer spots to fill last in farm parties.

That...is suspiciously starting to sound like another game I have on my pc
In that game, ppl are now asking for high end players to run dungeons I ran a number of times on lv 45.

...is it just that ppl are looking for a fast, easy clear?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I disagree. Not everyone demands the meta; only the people that want and enjoy the optimization that comes from it does. Why should people that enjoy optimization be denied what they like?

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I think their train of thought is more on the lines of: most people need to drop this meta obsession if they are not really working in it. Ostracizing a potentially good player who plays a non-meta job is not helping the community.

The meta is fine, the problem is its "bandwagoners".