A tank's lament

I actually feels the game is DPS-centric. Exdeath for example has raid DPS requirement around 21000 something (based on guides). we had a fight that was so close that made me think that if i had stayed in tank stance the whole time I was tanking him we might not be able to kill him. So it is somehow true that it is all about DPS.
Before stepping into savage 4 I always stay in tank stance (even ex trials). Luckly no one has harassed me for that:) but now i am learning to drop grit after i get aggro and it is quite fun. I havent play any other mmorpg other than final fantasy so cant really comment on how the other games handling tanking classes

I've never seen tank kicked for low dps tbh, and trust me, I ran with some extreme cases. If you are kicked in non-savage content, there probably is other reason for that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nedkel

Report them and they will get banned for it.
You cant even mention the bad dps, because that is looked by gm's as a parser harassment, it gets more attention than bots. Let these red heated brains use a break from the game.

---

It's not how it works. They can get warning or maybe even ban for insult, but that's it. You don't need exact numbers to see when someone is doing wrong rotation or not using all his skills. For all we know they might've just told him to use DPS combo instead of enmity one or stop sitting in tank stance.
Also, you can talk about bad DPS all you want. It's obvious when mobs die slower than usual and you are free to point it out in chat, as long as you don't insult others by doing it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by F_Maximillian

I'm curious as to what you mean by this.

---

There are many tank who go Dps >> everything else and since I said it wasn't mandatory I would be quoted and said I was wrong.
I didn't happen tho xD

Also some people seem to have missed the line where he said he wasn't doing savage and restricted himself to extreme.
Any tank saying you need to tank in dps stance to meet those boss dps requirement spent too much time in savage and forgot what extreme actually is.

However, the poster didn't specify his rotation and I would like to add that regarding aggro management, you should not need more than 1 or 2 aggro combo to hold enmity if you stay in tank stance. I personally do 2 to be safe but once that is done I spam my regular dps rotation. I'd you in fact spam the aggro rotation then I would recommand changing this habit, aggro is like healing, once you have enough any extra is useless. Overheal is as relevant as over aggroing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Terkhev

I've never seen tank kicked for low dps tbh, and trust me, I ran with some extreme cases. If you are kicked in non-savage content, there probably is other reason for that.


It's not how it works. They can get warning or maybe even ban for insult, but that's it. You don't need exact numbers to see when someone is doing wrong rotation or not using all his skills. For all we know they might've just told him to use DPS combo instead of enmity one or stop sitting in tank stance.
Also, you can talk about bad DPS all you want. It's obvious when mobs die slower than usual and you are free to point it out in chat, as long as you don't insult others by doing it.

---

GM's doesnt care really, if someone is parsing or not because how would he know, they will go the easiest way and give him a warning or a ban.
Its still punishable offence.

If you are getting actively kicked regularly by unrelated random groups of people, you are doing something fundamentally very wrong.

Tanks don't get frequently kicked because they aren't doing 3k+ DPS. There is a LARGE range of 'good enough' damage. However, if you walk into an encounter and do some abysmally low amount of damage, then yes, you might get kicked. Looking at FF logs you can see (for example) Warrior shin damage ranges from 2k to 3k (10% and 90% range). If you walk in and do 2300 youre not going to be constantly kicked for your dps. If, however you walk in and do 1000, then yes, people might start kicking. You are doing HALF the damage of the lowest 10% of performing tanks. That puts you squarely in the flat out bad at your job category.

That's not elitists focusing on damage to much. That's more equivalent to 1 healer healing 90% of the damage in a fight and the other sitting on their bum. Just performing terribly badly. There is a point in which you just aren't carrying your own weight anymore.

Ive been playing MMOs for a very long time. Trust me when I tell you, if groups are REGULARLY kicking you, then you are doing something very, very wrong. You have to underperform to really horrendous levels for random people to constantly kick you purely on performance. The more common reason is bringing an attitude with you. If you are consistently getting kicked from random unrelated pug groups, the only common denominator is you.

Technically, you are dpsing all the time when you're a tank.
What you are expected to do at the very least, as a MT, even if you're not dropping your tank stance (let's be honest, it's not required that much if everyone in the party is performing well), is having a good rotation.

For example, how many paladin i see doing less dps than their healer because they totally don't use Requiescat and Holy Spirit.
That's a huge amount of damage lost.

Well, that's my opinion but, trying to do the rotation correctly is the very first goal (this way, you'll have a decent MT dps, and that'll be okay).

Being the MT doesn't mean to just spam the aggro combo. That's the idea.
Yes you hold it, once it's secured, you do you rotation and use your defensive cooldown when needeed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylvain

Also some people seem to have missed the line where he said he wasn't doing savage and restricted himself to extreme.
Any tank saying you need to tank in dps stance to meet those boss dps requirement spent too much time in savage and forgot what extreme actually is.

---

The argument for dps stance isn't that you need it to meet dps requirements, it's that there's just almost no reason at all to use tank stance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rasikko

If you never use your tank stance, you'll never hold aggro unless you're playing with really bad DPS

---

That's not true at all.

What you have to understand is that the strictly tanking aspects of this game are not hard to do. Aggro is binary: Either you have aggro, or you don't, and if you're making good use of shirk with your co tank, then it's basically a non factor.

Mitigation is something you simply plan out over the course of a fight. Excess mitigation is wasted, so plan accordingly.

Positioning is usually the tricky part of a tank's responsibility, but good positioning ideas usually aren't too necessary in your average pf party.

On top of all this, a good tank can pump out nearly 70% of an actual dps's dps. 2 tanks pushing their own dps contributes a LOT to a party's overall raid dps.

Say it with me. EVERYONE contributes to dps in this game. Everyone. Not just dps. No one is exempt. If you're a good player, you should be trying to push your own dps.

Damage beats content. The more everyone is willing to contribute (yes, everyone - tanks, healers, and optimized DPS), the better it is for everyone, regardless of their role. Nobody has to struggle quite as much when content isn't going at a low-damage snail-pace. The quicker X dies, the less healing/tanking required and so-forth.

Quote:

---

even if you stay in tank stance the whole fight, any skilled healer will compensate some of your loss.

---

A good tank will be able to judge a few things:
a) Is the Healer contributing DPS?
b) Are they able to maintain that while I leave Def-Stance?

If the answer to the above is Yes, then grab the emnity you need (which is surprisingly little these days) and then contribute DPS until you are required to swap back. If, on the other hand, a well-geared DPS-capable Healer is forced to go into more of a Healing-spam mode because you've swapped, it's typically not worth it. However, the word 'compensate' should never come into the equation. A DPS Healer is not compensating for DPS player or a Def-Stance Tank, for example. It's about finding a balance where the 'trinity' is not only functioning smoothly, but also pushing out as much damage as they possibly can in order to reach that finish line in as quick and efficient manner as possible.

Now, let's say you have 4x4K DPS, a Def-Only Tank and a Heal-Only Healer - compared against the same group with DPS contributing tanks & healers is astounding. However, there are obviously scenarios where it is not possible of feasible. There's no logical reason for a Tank to try punch out hawt-deeps if doing so is putting a strain on the Healer (and vice versa). Same can be said about eating mechanics or DPS stealing aggro. Nothing annoys me more than seeing geared/experienced DPS players eating mechanics or getting attention from mobs (be it over zealous play or a tank not paying attention) -- that shifts my attention (as a Healer) from pushing out extra damage and forcing me back to heal mode if more incoming damage is on the way, forces the tank to go back to pickup-duty, and often puts the DPS in a cautious position - everyone suffers.

Again, a well oiled trinity has a smoother road, for everyone, with overall damage being one of the foundations.

I view these kinds of threads with extreme skepticism. All the horrible stories of abuse these tanks/healers suffer for not pushing out dps is so far removed from anything I've actually seen in game. It more seems like using the forum to propagate their anti tank/healer dps agenda using fictitious, or at least greatly embellished, tales of misfortune than anything else.