Dusting off the Tome: Summoner Feedback for 4.1

well haven't meant you in the first way ; )

anyway I disagree with you here and there... even though the pets-autoatk-priority is not the best design ever, people asked for egi-related skills in the past and I think its the right way to go - neither making Bahamut a stupid turret. Yet the current design is not the best way - we agree at that - but killing pet-actions (or pet related actions) and any interaction with Bahamut will made this job damn boring.

Sure pet-attention/priority and Bahamut-mechanic could be better but just removing any interaction with our pets just won't fit.

I like that wyrmwave works with user inputs, but it should work only with DAMAGE inputs (Ruin II, Ruin IV, Fester, Enkindle Bahamut, and maybe let Tri-Disaster be the exception). This would prevent the usage of Addle for it.

If it was up to me, Ruin II would automatically be Ruin IV for the duration of Bahamut's timer, as well (or Ruin III could be instant cast as if it was DWT). Outside of that the only real issue with it is that he hesitates during movement, so I would just remove that hesitation or lock him in place where he is summoned completely. Boom, problems with Bahamut solved.

I'd like Wyrmwave to be an auto attack for Demi-Bahamut instead. I don't like how I need to wait for Aetherflow and have to use Addle so I get maximum damage.

I wish they gave him more than one skill (weaker potency than Enkindle Bahamut but shorter cooldowns) so it feels like we are controlling him, instead of what Wyrmwave is currently.

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Originally Posted by Flana

Believe me, I would love for it to work like that. It's basically the perfect evolution of Heavensward Summoner, which I still believe was completely superior to Stormblood's iteration.

That said, the dev team has been adamant about not giving us that ability back, so that was me trying to meet in the middle. If it were up to me, there wouldn't be a lock, period, and Aetherflow/Aethertrail would go back to working like Heavensward for the most part.

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This is the change I hope the dev make. Keep in mind that they said Sustain was never coming back either. Call me optimistic, But I'm hoping that if people are persistent enough, the dev cave and make summoner an evolution of what it was, instead of stripping everything away.

But until then, I would settle for anything. Especially Aetherflow never being gated. (Doesn't much flow. at all.)

The sad truth is, if watching the player feedback vs the dev's actual changes has told us anything, it appears that none of them really care about or understand or probably even play SMN as a class, which means that they are very limited when it comes to balancing/fixing it. It literally feels like they sit around a table in a room asking each other "So who here plays SMN? You? No? No one? Well what should we do for the job then?" "idk, give it bahamut I guess? lol" "....any other suggestions? No..? No one? Well ok then, sounds perfect!"


This feeds into that other thread talking about how Devs don't truly listen to player feedback as far as the way classes FEEL is concerned, and makes the need for us to push for a dedicated test server all the greater.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

I wish they gave him more than one skill (weaker potency than Enkindle Bahamut but shorter cooldowns) so it feels like we are controlling him, instead of what Wyrmwave is currently.

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actually this yeah :)

Here's how I'd rework SMN:

Goals:

• Restore SMN's HW identity and flow by focusing its gameplay around a single burst window, DWT, while having a long filler period.
• Remove the proc gameplay while giving SMN something else to manage in its filler to make up for removing its phases.
• Reduce SMN's damage output and raid DPS contribution to be more in line with other classes.
• Give Bahamut the QoL he deserves while shifting some of his power to the regular pets.
• Remove or reduce reliance on Pet delays while incorporating pet-based utility into more reliable actions.
• Reduce button bloat where possible.
• Shift SMN's AoE power into Bane rather than Tri-Bind/Painflare, in order to make its sustained AoE damage better while reducing its burst.
• Minimize the effect that any of these changes would have on SCH, where possible.

Filler spells:

• - Ruin I/II: Potency reduced to 80.
• - Enhanced Ruin II removed.
• - Ruin III: Potency reduced to 60. Mana Cost unchanged. Can only be executed while under the effect of Further Ruin. New Effect: Further Ruin Bonus Potency: 20 per stack.
• - Ruin Mastery reworked (Now learned at 54): Ruin/Ruin II grant a stack of Further Ruin. Stacks up to 2 times. Duration 10s.
• - Ruin IV: Potency reduced to 60. Mana cost doubled. No longer consumes Further Ruin. New Effect: Further Ruin Bonus Potency: 20 per stack.
• - Ruin Mastery II (learned at 68): Further Ruin now stacks up to 4 times.

Aetherflow & Aetherflow Abilities:

• Fester: Now has a 50 base Potency. Damage increase from Bio/Miasma effects you've cast on target reduced to 100 each, for a total of 250.
• Painflare: Potency reduced to 150.
• Bane's minimum damage is increased to 40%. Damage drop off unchanged.

Dreadwyrm Trance:

• - DWT now learned at 56. Grants 10% attack speed, 20% increased Magic Damage, and full Further Ruin stacks.
• - Deathflare now consumes all Further Ruin stacks.
• - Duration increased to 20s.
• - No longer reduces the cast time of Ruin III.
• - You may use Aetherflow & Aetherflow abilities during DWT.
• - Aethertrail and Aetherflow are no longer mutually exclusive effects.
• - Tri-Disaster now learned at 58. May only be used during DWT. Its third debuff is now based on what pet you have out. Duration 20s.
• - Ruin III/IV/Tri-Bind grant Further Ruin during DWT.
• - Tri-Bind's bonus potency during DWT changed: Now gains 10 potency per Further Ruin stack.

Pets & Pet Cooldowns:

• - Rouse Reworked: Your pet's next basic action now gains a bonus effect when used. Duration 10s. 60s cooldown.
• - Enhanced Enkindle removed.
• - Devotion removed.
• - Enkindle cooldown reduced to 60s.
• - Aetherpact reworked: Commands the pet to use their Enkindle ability and guarantees a critical hit against the first enemy it strikes. 120s Cooldown.

Garuda:

• Roused Windblade Silences the target for 3s.
• Shockwave's potency increased to 100. Knockback removed.
• Contagion reworked: Now is a 5 yalm AoE DoT that deals 30 wind potency damage per tick for 15s.
• Tri-Disaster applies a 10% Magic Vul Up while Garuda is out.

Ifrit:

• Radiant Shield: Phys Vul Up removed.
• Crimson Cyclone: No longer stuns.
• Roused Burning Strike Stuns the target for 3s.
• Tri-Disaster applies a 5% Phys Vul Up while Ifrit is out.

Titan:

• Roused Rock Buster Slows the target by 20% for 15s.
• Tri-Disaster applies a 2% Vul Up while Titan is out.

Faeries:

• Roused Embrace increases the Faerie's healing magic potency by 40% for 20s.

Bahamut:

• No longer moves from his summoned location.
• Enkindle Bahamut removed.
• Summon: Bahamut reworked: Can no longer be cast manually. DWT now automatically uses Summon: Bahamut in addition to its other effects if used while you have 2 Dreadwyrm Aether stacks.
• Akh Morn reworked: Potency reduced to 340. Damage drop off removed. Now used whenever you use Enkindle or Aetherpact.
• Wyrm Wave only triggers upon casting spells. Potency reduced to 140. Cast time reduced to 1s.

Notes:

• SMN has lost a ton of burst potency from Akh Morn, but gains most of it back from a shorter Enkindle and the new Aetherpact. The main loss comes from Wyrm Wave and only being able to Summon Bahamut every 3 minutes instead of 2, which should bring their damage down where it needs to be.
• Early on in HW pets were given a buff that made them take SMN's damage buffs (INT potions, DWT, RS, etc) into account. However, they do not take attack speed boosts into account, as it's not a true spell speed buff like their old proc was in ARR. We've traded Rouse's boost for a much better boost to DWT, which affects all of our damage
• SMN loses some minor potency from the current Ruin III spam if managed optimally. Needing to refresh DoTs outside of DWT every time and having to charge Further Ruin loses 330 potency per minute from the current iteration. Even when capped on Further Ruin outside of DWT the average potency is slightly lower [(140x3 + 80)/4 = 125]. Inside DWT it is a massive boost, even capable of beating the old Ruin III in HW if you use Garuda's Tri-Disaster (about 380ish potency gained before factoring in spell speed). It doesn't make up for the loss of the Ruin IV proc, but it helps break even with the loss of Tri-Disaster outside DWT.
• Fester's overall damage hasn't changed, provided you use it after Tri-D with Garuda.
• Painflare & DWT Tribind got nerfed but the Bane buff matters way more. Encouraging you to use it twice on longer pulls more than makes up for the lost Painflare potency.
• There is more of a trade off between Ifrit and Garuda. You lose a fair amount of personal dps for that extra 3% phys vul up vs current SMN. And it's no longer AoE either. Can your party make up for it? Probably, but you'll think about it a little more.
• Goodbye Devotion. We didn't need ye.

Man, that’s way too complicated, way too much rework, it's a new class here you’re doing.

Also, something I dislike with your proposals is that you introduce things that will widen the skill gap and aggravates death penalty (the stack system for the ruins) even more, while we're trying to get rid of that. Beware that anything with a timer or a stack is a gap widener, not a gap narrower.

The changes made recently are very likable, and the number of things to track is just right (we have a lot to track but it can please more skilled players, and it’s not unfathomable either with training). I really only have three last problems with SMN as it is now:

1. Wyrmwave. The way it works, you won’t use Bahamut unless you have aetherflow. Make Wyrmwave OUR oGCD, to weave between Ruin II/IV. No need for peculiar oGCD burn (or use of addle), wyrmwave would be the spam.


2. Gate system. Put a bullet through its head and be done with it. We always seem to run into small 20 secs gates where some skills have to be used before or after but not during. Like “oh no, rouse is up but I’m supposed to Bahamut in 5 seconds”, or “oh no, it was time for trance but the boss jumped, now AF has returned so either I ditch trance or I make aetherflow wait 16 seconds…”
That’s bullsh*t really. Sure, it’s not much of a difference on one mistake, but that’s the exact opposite of a flow. Like tumbling on a step when climbing stairs, and that’s what I believe is behind the word “clunkyness” for many people who don’t know how to express it.

3. Power creep. The first two suggestions are to narrow the skill gap by raising the skill floor. But because of the recent changes, the ceiling is starting to get too high as well (I mean look at fflogs now, SMN inches away from first DPS, when it was last 2 months ago, and look at the spikes from the patches).
It’s starting to get really OP when you add his utility it’s too much. People will start to rant against it. No SMN wants that. So please Square adjust some potencies while you’re at it. (yes I’m asking for a nerf, but I think it’s a reasonable suggestion here given best SMNs current situation, plus I’d take QoL over raw damage anytime.)

I would prefer both quality of life and appropriate damage, personally, and I think that anyone who understands how this game works can agree that SMN is way too strong for its utility and could still use some of the quality of life. But, lolSE (refer to my comment about how I legitimately think no one at the company even likes or plays SMN so they don't even know what to do with it)

I LIKE the fact that Wyrmwave relies on the caster's input because that means there is an amount of planning ahead and "skill" involved with executing it properly, but I don't like that it works with Addle and fails to work during movement, so refer again to my previous comment regarding that.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

The sad truth is, if watching the player feedback vs the dev's actual changes has told us anything, it appears that none of them really care about or understand or probably even play SMN as a class, which means that they are very limited when it comes to balancing/fixing it. It literally feels like they sit around a table in a room asking each other "So who here plays SMN? You? No? No one? Well what should we do for the job then?" "idk, give it bahamut I guess? lol" "....any other suggestions? No..? No one? Well ok then, sounds perfect!"


This feeds into that other thread talking about how Devs don't truly listen to player feedback as far as the way classes FEEL is concerned, and makes the need for us to push for a dedicated test server all the greater.

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The fact that they don't implement all things the forum asks and in the way the forum asks doesn't mean that they do not listen or care, it only means the truth which is that they search for an aggregate of forum wants and need and then they see if it's possible to apply that to again while managing dev time (because the playerbase is extremely patient)

Also forgive me but players in this game are as much able to make mistakes as the devs and the past outcries of the forum are proof enough, so excuse me but I don't buy this attitude of WE ABSOLUTELY KNOW WHAT'S BETTER as players we MIGHT know that but how actually devs know which forum-goer is right?


Refer to all the WHM ARE DEAD, HW DRK IS SHIT, outcries for all of this