Help with big pulls in newer content

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Originally Posted by tinythinker

E4E would be after the holies if the tank is still dropping. I figure everyone struggles at times with their jobs or poor positioning so my role is to help catch them. If it turns out I don't need it that's fine with me.

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Oh yeah, it's cool to have for sure. I was just saying the stun from Holy means enemies are attacking the tank less while E4E is up which makes it less effective. For a SCH or AST on a big pull it's great since they don't stun. But after 3 or 4 holies enemies go immune to the stun for like a minute anyways so that's prime time for E4E.

Though now I'm curious what cross roles you have, that might be playing into the big pull difficulty too. On WHM I tend to use Protect, Swiftcast, Largresse, Lucid Dreaming and Cleric Stance. I try to swap either Cleric or Protect for Esuna when I know I'll need it. I get that Cleric isn't everyone's cup of tea as well, just my two cents :D

Bardram's is a bad barometer for big pulls.

Bardram's sucks, and is more dangerous than any expert dungeon currently.

I happened to take a video of my Ala Mhigo expert today in case it's any help for you: https://youtu.be/cbho3LYfxdE. I haven't played WHM much in SB and my WHM is far from optimised though. But maybe it can be an example of an average WHM play in this content. :)

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Bardram's is a bad barometer for big pulls.

Bardram's sucks, and is more dangerous than any expert dungeon currently.

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For sure. Its like a perfect storm of terrible things for healers, culminating in undergeared tanks pulling like there is an actual time limit to worry about.

I'm also going to chime in and agree that Bardem's and Ala Mhigo both have some pretty large damage bumps when groups are being stacked together. This is especially true in Bardem if a tank is still running in i270 gear. It's a small ilvl jump but the defense bonuses the tank gain for being at capped ilvl is immense.

In fact, if you want to put into perspective the leaps in Defense / MDefense values that higher ilvl gear has, go to the market board and look at jumps in Def / MDef value on tank gear after i270. This should emphasize both the importance of a tank to update their gear and also show you how much of a difference the seemingly small leap in ilvl means to helping you keep your tank alive.

Ala Mhigo is also a culprit to mass pulls because the instance itself caps at ilvl 310. This means tanks feeling invincible due to no ilvl sync (yet) in Kugane / Temple of Fist / Scylla won't have the same benefits in Ala Mhigo. I also think ilvl sync also removes the bonuses given by Materia, which can also affect tank survability if they have a lot Tenacity melded. This is coupled with some trash having some pretty potent tank busters *Glares at gorillas and motorcycles* leads to some pretty crazy damage spikes that may be hard to heal if you aren't ilvl capped.

In essence, don't feel too bad if things go pretty far south in these two dungeons. If a tank can't gauge the limitations of the party and goes wall-to-wall, there might not be anything you can do about that as a healer and unfortunately, there's not much you can do about it at that point.

I happened to have collected all the quest HQ gear from 64 to 68. Here are some relevant values:

• defense head + body + hands + waist + legs + feet (VIT)
• Lv 60 270 Shire: 343 + 480 + 343 + 297 + 480 + 343 = 2286
  (VIT = 117+190+117+88+190+117 = 819)
• Lv 64 273 HQ: 389 + 545 + 389 + 337 + 545 + 389 = 2594, meaning Shire + 13.5%
  (VIT = 120+195+120+90+195+120 = 840)
• Lv 66 279 HQ: 482 + 674 + 482 + 417 + 674 + 482 = 3211, meaning Shire + 40.5%, or the Lv 64 set + 23.8%
  (VIT = 122+199+122+92+199+122 = 856)

I'm not familiar with the actual damage reduction from defense, so I can't offer how much actual difference they pose. But I'd wager there's a huge difference between someone at level 66 or syncced wearing their level-appropriate gear and someone at level 65 who only has access to the first two sets.

Mass pulls can always be a little finicky because part of the situation is out of your control. If the tank doesn't hold aggro off DPS or isn't mitigating damage, the struggle can be real but I can tell you how I handle them in pretty much all dungeons after lvl 66.

1. Aside from the first pull of the whole dungeon, I try to make sure I have three lilies before each pull so I can cast Divine Benison a few seconds before the tank starts rounding up adds. It won't attract aggro so long as the cast is over before the tank gets too close but it will keep them from dipping down too much during that gathering phase in some larger pulls that can then leave you trying to play catch up once aggro is established.

2. As they are approaching the point I know they'll stop I drop Asylum and silently say a prayer they'll stand in it.

3. Cast regen.

4. Begin healing with Cure I/II.

5. Divine Benison will be up fast in most cases because I used it 3-5 seconds before the pull and had the the full recast reduction. I top the tank off, reuse it, thin air, and move in to swift cast holy until their hp is dropping to a level I'm no longer comfortable with. That varies for me depending on if I'm running with a pocket tank I know or if its a pug tank that I'm not as familiar with.

6. Whenever I reach that danger zone I pop tetra, assize, renew regen if there is more than 21secs of the battle left (if I don't think it will fall off before the next pull, I leave it off), and go back to healing with Cure I/Cure II.

My other advice would be to remember your abilities like Presence of Mind. In a pinch, if I'm falling behind or need to get off an aoe heal for the others while not losing too much ground on the tank, Ill pop Benison, PoM, Medica, then go back to Cure I/II. WHM is also very mana efficient with a ton of ways to get it back so I honestly very rarely bother with Cure I and I think that has become pretty common. The free cure proc chance just isn't frequent enough for me to see the value. Largresse is also nice when you need an extra boost but always pop it before your regens etc to make sure they are under its effect. Keep your Benediction in the wing just in case you need that 'HOLY COW' heal to save a tanks life and try not to position yourself in any place you'll be forced to move too much. Sometimes it can't be helped thanks to targeted aoe markers etc but I also try to not stand near other casters that way if they do get targeted, I don't also have to move.

As an aside, if you're ever not comfortable with mass pulls, say so. That's perfectly acceptable and sometimes higher geared tanks tunnel vision and won't check your gear or that of the party before mass pulling, let alone ask. Most people are pretty friendly about it if you do though. Good luck out there.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

I happened to have collected all the quest HQ gear from 64 to 68. Here are some relevant values:

• defense head + body + hands + waist + legs + feet (VIT)
• Lv 60 270 Shire: 343 + 480 + 343 + 297 + 480 + 343 = 2286
  (VIT = 117+190+117+88+190+117 = 819)
• Lv 64 273 HQ: 389 + 545 + 389 + 337 + 545 + 389 = 2594, meaning Shire + 13.5%
  (VIT = 120+195+120+90+195+120 = 840)
• Lv 66 279 HQ: 482 + 674 + 482 + 417 + 674 + 482 = 3211, meaning Shire + 40.5%, or the Lv 64 set + 23.8%
  (VIT = 122+199+122+92+199+122 = 856)

I'm not familiar with the actual damage reduction from defense, so I can't offer how much actual difference they pose. But I'd wager there's a huge difference between someone at level 66 or syncced wearing their level-appropriate gear and someone at level 65 who only has access to the first two sets.

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I'm also not too familiar myself with how damage received is exactly calculated but to help put your numbers into perspective, here are the jumps from Lv. 50 to 56. The percentage boost is the same across the board for the SB gear so I'm just going to make the same assumption here:

(Lv. 50 equivalent) i130 Body - 167 DEF / 59 VIT
(Lv. 54) i333 Body - 168 DEF / 59 VIT (basically no change)
(Lv. 56) i139 Body - 203 DEF / 60 VIT (21.5%+)

So, going from i130 to i139 is a gain of 21.5% defense while going from i270 to i279 is a gain of 40.5%. Now there's the potential that damage received formulas might be adjust for post 60+ content but if you assume that formula remains the same and content is tuned around these higher defense values in mind, a lower ilvl tank will suffer more damage in SB content versus pre-SB content - which in turn lower ilvls more more squishier than compared to that same ilvl gulf in pre-SB.

Honestly it could have been a bit of everything, if you were spamming cure2 with regen and occasional emergency cooldowb like tetragram you should be fine. Which means that it's either your tank not being careful enough, dps not dropping things fast enough. I don't believe your gear is the only reason, it could have had an impact of course, but increasing your healing by 20% will not make things go from “barely manageable “, to "cakewalk"

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Honestly it could have been a bit of everything, if you were spamming cure2 with regen and occasional emergency cooldowb like tetragram you should be fine. Which means that it's either your tank not being careful enough, dps not dropping things fast enough. I don't believe your gear is the only reason, it could have had an impact of course, but increasing your healing by 20% will not make things go from “barely manageable “, to "cakewalk"

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After continuing to struggle (and do worse?) in any SB dungeon above Siren Song, I think I will have to give up on all but an opportunistic Holy now and then and just spam heal. Parties may get mad but that's better than dead. :)